Would like help finding ammunition for Foerster 9.5x47R black powder

[fuhrmann]

Cousin Mike

it is just a wild and non-important theory.
Both rifles are 25 or 30 years apart, still the stockwork looks so similar.

The Förster rifle was made for blackpowder pressures, say 1000-1200 bar, while the Gründig rifle is to withstand the much higher pressures generated by nitro powder, current CIP limit for 8x57IR is 3200 bar.
This simply requires more material in the breech area, and the Greener crossbolt comes as additional safeguard.

Now I see the peep sight / diopter for the Förster rifle - is this stored behind the trap in the buttplate?
The trap in the Gründig rifle clearly will be for some spare cartridges.

I assume that Mr. Dorfner is buying in the empty cases. I know of only 2 makers specialising in cases for old cartridges, Horneber in Germany and Bertram in Australia, and have heard of such shortages before.
Good luck in finding a reloader in your area who can help.

fuhrmann

[Cousin Mike]

fuhrmann

Yes, the sight is stored behind the trap in the buttplate. There are three pieces stored in there... the sight, a screw to tighten the sight into its fixture, and a little wrench to tighten the screw. I am fairly amazed none of the pieces were lost.
And yes, the trap in the Grundig stores four cartridges. Fun stuff!

[Cousin Mike]

Well, the two boxes of ammunition for the 8x57IR arrived yesterday. I ordered them from ammo.com and was pleased with their quick delivery. I'll take some to the gunsmith and have him verify that everything checks out.
For the 9,5x47R, today I ordered one box of Bertram cases from Graf's. I am pretty sure that means I have started down the path of hand loading some cartridges for it :-). Next I'll look at the dies from CH4D and the Accurate mold that you folks have pointed out. Thank you ALL for your input.

[fuhrmann]

fuhrmann

Yes, the sight is stored behind the trap in the buttplate. There are three pieces stored in there... the sight, a screw to tighten the sight into its fixture, and a little wrench to tighten the screw. I am fairly amazed none of the pieces were lost.
And yes, the trap in the Grundig stores four cartridges. Fun stuff!

Cousin Mike

that's interesting!
Might I ask for some detail photographs of the sight, the accessory parts and how they fit in the trap?
I have 2 rifles with flip-up peep sight, also know the big peep sights for target rifles - like this http://www.alfred-schilling.de/zubehoer/frame_pro.html
but do not remember to have seen a peep sight like yours.

This might be important info if I run into an old rifle missing its peep sight, and maybe also for a muzzleloader project.
Will send you a PM with e-mail contact, and thanks in advance!
fuhrmann

[fuhrmann]

Well, the two boxes of ammunition for the 8x57IR arrived yesterday. I ordered them from ammo.com and was pleased with their quick delivery. I'll take some to the gunsmith and have him verify that everything checks out.
For the 9,5x47R, today I ordered one box of Bertram cases from Graf's. I am pretty sure that means I have started down the path of hand loading some cartridges for it :-). Next I'll look at the dies from CH4D and the Accurate mold that you folks have pointed out. Thank you ALL for your input.

Cousin Mike,
congratulations, that is the way forward!
Now my experience in loading blackpowder cartridges is limited and there are other members in this board with way more experience, but allow me some comments:

Before ordering a bullet mold, have the barrel "slugged" to get exact land and field diameters.
Meaning drive a soft lead slug through the barrel (a ca. .40 caliber muzzleloader ball shouls be just right) and measure exactly, with a micrometer caliper.
As already said, there may be variations from one rifle to the next, and these dimensions are critical.
And before investing money and waiting time into a custom bullet mold, you may be able to buy some bullets and try them.
Another option is paper-patching bullets that are a bit undersize.
Probably plenty of options in the .357 to .38 or .40 caliber range.

Dies and a reloading press are needed to produce cases that fit.
If the Bertram cases fit well, you may not need press and dies to produce loaded cartridges - the oldtimers reloaded with only some basic tools as well.

I have found some loading data for the 9,5x47R in a German manual and can send these by e-mail.

Regards,
fuhrmann

[mike ford]

Cousin Mike
fuhrmann has given valid advice, but I offer the additional info. The barrel will likely "slug out" close enough to .375-.380" that you should be able to find some 200-250 gr cast bullets for sale, from Buffalo Arms. Go back to the Graf's add you ordered the cases from, and see if they were marked with an *. If so, they will be what is known as "unformed" and dies will be required to make them fit the chamber( in fact, they may really be 11.15x60R cases with 9.5 headstamp). I use "Nitro for black" loads in my rifles and have no experience with black powder in them. Sharps 4590, however, is very experienced with it and will be happy to advise you. If you know, or can find, a handloader, he will likely let you use his press and other necessary equipment; if like most handloaders, he will show you how to do it, and offer other advice. If your dies don't come with a shell holder, you can buy one from a local gun store( ask for one that fits 11.15x60R/43Mauser).
Mike

[Cousin Mike]

fuhrmann, here are some pics of the sight and the trap. Sorry for the crappy quality of some of them. Let me know if you would like more; I'd be glad to post them.
sight-3.jpg sight-2.jpg sight-1a.jpg sight-back.jpg

The rest of the pics follow in the next post.

[Cousin Mike]

sight-mounted-1.jpg sight-mounted-2.jpg sight-mounted-3.jpg trap-1.jpg trap-2.jpg

[Cousin Mike]

Mike, the Graf's page didn't indicate unformed, but the same Bertram cases at the Huntington site says " * unformed ". Thanks for the heads-up.

[Cousin Mike]

Thanks fuhrmann! I will send you my email address.

[Diz]

Cousin Mike,

There are only two shell holders that I know of that fit the 9.5x47R. One is a Lee #18 and the other is a CH4D #43. The CH4D is in stock and available from Buffalo Arms. Lee Precision or the major retailers like Graf or Midway should have the other. If you get into handloading be prepared it is quite an adventure and will open up a whole new area of guns and calibers you never thought to considered before. Any questions don't hesitate to ask, there is a lot of help here.

Thanks, Diz

[fuhrmann]

Mike
thanks for the pics!
Quality is fine for me, no more pics needed.

Haven't seen such a sight before and appreciate the info.
And I am even more impressed by the quality of your rifle!

Martin

[sharps4590]

Oh come on Cousin Mike....either you're going to have to stop posting pictures, I'm going to have to stop looking or I'm going to have an orgasmic response!!!! That rifle is.....incredible.

The shell holder for the 43 Mauser, 11.15 X 60R, is the same as the 9.5 if you don't find one identified as specifically for the 9.5. I think someone mentioned that....but my "thinker" isn't always accurate....

[Cousin Mike]

Thanks Diz, and sharps, for the shellholder info.

[mike ford]

Cousin Mike,
I had a lot of problems with Lee shell holders. I bought a set of "RGB" (cheap) 11.15x60R/43 Mauser dies to shorten when I was working up 11.15x51R loads, rather than shorten my RCBS dies. I believe Lee made all their shell holders, using the same size "blanks". Since the 'Mauser Base" rim is thicker than other rims, the top of 43 Mauser shell holders was very thin. Therefore, when forming different cases, the top pulled off the Lee . My friend Steve had the same experience while making 11.5x52R cases. I have had no problem with RCBS shell holder. The problems occurred several years ago, so Lee may have corrected it.
Mike