Johann Peterlongo 6.5x48R

[rasol]

Hi to all,

Thank you for letting me in this forum. I come from Croatia and have I have nice old Austrian rifle made by Johann Peterlongo from Innsbruck in 6.5x48R Sauer caliber.
I am hoping to find some more info of the gun, proof marks and the cartridge. My final goal is to be able to reload for this rifle.

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[rasol]

I am posting some pictures and comments of my understanding of proof marks, so please correct me if I am wrong.

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Eagle mark is 1892-1918 Ferlach black powder proof for rifles

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EF on the right is Ferlach provisional proof for barrel guns since 1891. Crown over G is E. German, Suhl 1st black powder proof for rifled barrels since 1950, Crown over U is E. German, Suhl inspection mark since 1950, Crown over B ?, what the numbers stands for?

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NPF Ferlach smokeless powder proof 1891-1931, what the numbers stands for?

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D.R.G.M. stands for "Deutsches Reiches Gebrauchs Musterschutz" - meaning protected patented design under the Reich Government.

[rasol]

I have few boxes of original ammo

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75.4 grain bullet and the 12 grains of powder. I have shot few rounds thru chronograph and the speed is little more than 1900fps

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Bullet size is .255 inch that is 6.48 mm

Thanks

[mike ford]

rasol,
Your rifle was marketed by Johann Peterlongo in Innsbruck, but was not made by them. Rather it is a well known style of rifle often made for the "trade" in or around Zella-Mehlis. They are most often not clearly marked as to the actual maker. It was proofed in Zella-Mehlis in April 1909, under the register number 335. The EB next to the DGRM stands for Emil Barthelmes, who may or may not have made the rifle. It is possible that the Barthelmes patent only applies to the safety and does not apply to the maker. This same type rifle is often seen with a different type safety( Greener type). The 313 above the date is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter, expressed in gauge measurement. While I am not as knowledgeable of Austrian proof marks, I believe it was reproofed in Austria in 1910, and the bullet diameter was shown as 6.5mm( Germany started using mm bore bore diameter in 1911-12). If you intend to handload ammo for your rifle, you should be able to easily make cases from 303 Savage( not British) cases available from PRVI ( by simply sizing and trimming, and possibly adjusting the rim thickness or diameter).While slightly smaller head diameter, 30-30 Win. cases make acceptable 6.5x48R S&S cases the same way. For bullets, common 6.5mm( .264") should not be used, unless resized to fit the barrel. The available 25 caliber( 257") caliber bullets can likely be used instead. If a 25 cal bullet easily fits into a fired and unresized case, it will be usable "as is".
I hope you find this useful.
Mike

[rasol]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your answer, it's great information about origin and history of my rifle (build in Germany and then branded for Johan Peterlongo in Austria).
From proof marks on barrel and receiver it seams it was nitro proof in Austria 1910 for 6.5 caliber. Question is what would be max safe chamber pressure for this rifle. Quick Load says 6.5x48R is obsolete cartridge with max pressure of 200 bar around 2900 psi. I have slug the bore and it is .258 in the middle of the groove and it goes to .061 next to the land. Bore is .254. I bought two NOE molds 63 and 89 grain FN PB. Bullets cast out .261 dia, do I need to resize the bullets to fit this type of barrel and in what size to prevent lending. Yes .25 cal bullets fits into original fired case and I will try them (60 grain Hornady, 75 grain sierra, 117 S&B) soon as I get right powder. I found it is easiest to make cases from 6.5x52R (similar to .25-35 WCF) adjusting the rim thickness and then sizing and trimming.

It is great fun try to reload and shoot this old rifle.

Regards

rasol

[mike ford]

rasol,
The 6.5x52R( 25-35 Win. dimensions- slightly less pressure load) cases you mentioned, are perfectly fine, the difference in head diameters is not significant. When you adjust the rim diameter and thickness, if you make it fit the extractor closely, it will center the case in the chamber and cause even expansion of the case to fit the chamber. The 30-30 case I mentioned and 22 Savage HP( 5.6x52R) will work the same way. If the .261" cast bullet fits into the fired case neck, it can be used. The critical consideration is that the loaded cartridge neck/chamber neck dimensions are enough different to allow the neck to expand enough to release the bullet. Cases "jammed" into the bullets by chamber walls and not releasing, causes build up in pressures, more so than slightly large bullets. Cast bullets are not nearly as critical in this regard as jacketed bullets. I like to size cast bullets .002" over groove diameter, and try to use groove diameter jacketed bullets : assuming the neck dimension conditions are met. With regard to the allowable pressures, the 200 bar/2900 psi seem to be a misreading. The 1989 "Wiederladen" does not show the 6.5x48R S&S, but it's "sister cartridge" 8x48R S&S is shown at 2000bar/29007psi. You have to make your own decision of the loads you use. If not helpful, I hope I haven't confused matters.
Mike

[Axel E]

I found but little riginal data on the 6.5x48R Sauer & Sohn cartridge, DWM case number 463A, Roth case # 742. Your Austrian, Georg Roth, Vienna, loads seem to be very light, "Schonzeit" = off season, small game /varmint loads. The German loads I found were apparently much more powerfull.The 1934 DWM "Patrone und Schuss" catalog lists a 127 gr jacketed bullet ahead of 23 gr R5 smokeless for a mv of 2156 fps ( 26" test barrel), no pressure given. This load was even slightly more powerfull than their contemporary 6.5x58R load, the same 127 gr bullet ahead of 28 gr W1919 smokeless for 2116 fps. The 1922 Steigleder catalog quotes the 6.5x48R S&S with a 103 gr steel jacketed bullet and 23 gr R5 for 2100 fps. So I would try 23 gr VV N140 and a 100 – 120 g r .257" lead core bullet. Though N140 is a bit slower burning than the obsolete R5, it gives similar results with a bit less pressure, if loaded grain for grain, in many of the ld cartridges according to my experience.

[rasol]

Hi mike ford and Axel E,

Thank you for your answers. Cases for this interesting caliber are ready now and other components are in place. I will try to develop few loads and see what works best.
And mike ford I know I have to make my own decision for the loads, but discussion with more experienced people makes decisions easier and safer. Yes allowable pressures of 200 bar/2900 psi was misreading.
Regarding proof marks on my rifle, only thing I don't know is what 1265g means?

Thank you for your great info, it was really helpful.

Regards
rasol

[Axel E]

1265 is Emil Barthelmes' serial number. G is the mark of a Zella – Mehlis barrelmaker, Gottlieb Greifzu or Kurt Griebel?
German, Zella – Mehlis proofmarks: crown/B = proofload fired. Crown/G = proofed for use of a Geschoss = bullet. Crown/U = Untersucht = viewed/inspected for defects after proof firing. 313 = gauge number for a bore/land diameter from 6.25 to 6.5 mm. 4.09 = Zella –Mehlis proofdate April 1909, gun number 335 profed that month.
As the German proof was invalid in pre-WW1 Austria, the rifle had to be proofed again by an Austrian proofhouse when Peterlongo/Mahrholdt imported it from Germany. So it was proofed again by the Ferlach proofhouse in 1910, gun number 2200 proofed that year. 6.5 mm is the groove diameter marked by the Ferlach proofhouse.

[rasol]

Hi Axel E,
Thank you for reply, I have loaded and shoot 63 grain water quench cast bullet loaded over 5 grain RexII powder (similar to Green Dot) for 1500 fps with no leading. Because of adjusted rim thickness had to use LP primers.
That Austrian eagle 7900 proof mark has different number than NPF 2200 proof mark. Was it proofed for black powder first?

Thanks
rasol

[Axel E]

I don't know why the rifle visited the Ferlach proofhouse twice. Maybe Peterlongo's customer wanted it to be rechambered to 6.5x48R, available from Austrian ammo factories then, from a cartridge less potent, like the 6.5x40R G Tesching. As both proof numbers are of 1910, the NPF smokeless proof 2200 came before the 7900 proof, likely by several months.

[ellenbr]

1265 is Emil Barthelmes' serial number. G is the mark of a Zella – Mehlis barrelmaker, Gottlieb Greifzu or Kurt Griebel?
German, Zella – Mehlis proofmarks: crown/B = proofload fired. Crown/G = proofed for use of a Geschoss = bullet. Crown/U = Untersucht = viewed/inspected for defects after proof firing. 313 = gauge number for a bore/land diameter from 6.25 to 6.5 mm. 4.09 = Zella –Mehlis proofdate April 1909, gun number 335 profed that month.
As the German proof was invalid in pre-WW1 Austria, the rifle had to be proofed again by an Austrian proofhouse when Peterlongo/Mahrholdt imported it from Germany. So it was proofed again by the Ferlach proofhouse in 1910, gun number 2200 proofed that year. 6.5 mm is the groove diameter marked by the Ferlach proofhouse.

1265g is the weight of the tube. Not sure how that lowercase g is attributed to Gottlieb Greifzu or Kurt Griebel?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse