Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

[Axel E]

Here are the bolt bodies, top 06 test, bottom M98. The cocking cam is behind the bolt handle on the 98


Note: No gas escape holes on 96, wide holes on 98



The firing pin assemblies. 96 without bolt sleeve lock and forward safety lugs on firing pin.

[Axel E]

The Mauser commercial serial number 17 under receiver ring



bottom metal with Mauser factory double set trigger assembly and 17 on rear wall of magazine. The floorplate is lever detachble, not hinged, just like the others shown in this thread.

[excess650]

Axel,
Very enlightening. I had no idea that action existed.

[Axel E]

I had no idea that action existed.

You are certainly not alone!
Now you know why we insist on learning about the marks and numbers under barrel and action. Please, look for a Mauser commercial serial number too. You ought to know where to look by now.

[sbakf]

Need A Little Help From A Friend

Hi Axel,

Below is an email I sent out early this morning. After reading, I would truly appreciate your counsel. He's got it priced at a little over $800 with shipping. Costs to restore might make it a poor investment. I consider it only because it would pair nicely with what I have - again, a nice historical rifle (unique history), to leave to one of my 3 sons.


Good Morning Larry,

I have a big favor to ask of you. Since you are very familiar with rifles like mine (and yours) and what it takes to bring them back to as they once were, I need a range estimate for a basket case. I would describe it as a very rough barreled action, with some missing parts (photos attached). Photo quality is poor, but that's what I got from the seller.

What attracts me to this particular Sauer is its S/N - it's only 30 digits off from mine. If it can be restored without busting me, it would make a very nice pairing with my own Sauer. I know it's a major undertaking, but it might be worth the trouble and expense. I would hate to see it parted out - there's history in it.

I would appreciate it if you could break down your estimate according to the phase(s) of restoration (e.g., stock replication, metal finishing and repair, parts to buy and/or fabricate .... etc). Again, just a range (e.g., Total +/- $500).

If I buy it, time required to restore is not critical - I'm in no rush. Time given to buy, unfortunately, is very short for me - really short (by noon tomorrow).

Seller's Description:
Early mauser commercial transitional small ring action. Mauser & Sauer numbers match. 60cm 1/2 octagon barrel. Has good bore but throat is very worn. Missing sights and has dovetail cut in rear ring. D&Td for receiver sight. Bolt handle has been polished and knob has been recheckered.


Thanks for your help and with ...


Best Regards,

Steve


MY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix312040812.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix340215863.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix021646117 - Copy.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix108664277.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix116806784.jpg

[sbakf]

More Photos 1:

MY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix155513290.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix167239265.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix232440050.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix261699628.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix276310880.jpg

[sbakf]

More Photos 2:

MY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix557928209.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix923486582.jpgMY GUN - SAUER RIFLE SN78970 pix943752385.jpg

[mike ford]

Axel,
I made that statement because I had to find an intermediate length bolt for the Rigby, I wrote about with the Mauser number 100,dated 1898. In the meantime I've found out that transitional actions may be either short,intermediate, or standard length.Ican see how a WW1 standard bolt would fit some and not others.The issue of cock on opening vs closing, however, I will concede. I just didn't think about it enough.
Mike

[Axel E]

sbakf,Obviously a slghtly later, real cock on opening transitional rifle. the Mauser serial number 816 Dates it to 1898. But, "Bolt handle has been polished and knob has been recheckered", that's wrong. The bolthandle has been replaced entirely, using a modern American one also available from Brownell, quite expensive, but not too far from an original. I would leave it as is. Plugging the receiver sight screw holes, filing a blank to fill the slot in bridge, fitting new front and rear sights (Recknagel makes them) should not be a problem. Foreend wedge and escutcheons blanks are available from Dixies. As you have a stock to copy and one Larry has repro period buttplates on offer, restocking is no big Problem too. The cost will depend mostly on wood Quality. An european walnut (juglans regia) blank may run from $ 150.- to several k, depending on Color and figure. Please, do not use American black walnut (juglans nigra), commonly used on American stocks. This would look out of place on an early S&S. $ 800.- seems a bit stiff, but the market here in Germany is different from the American one.

[Axel E]

I made that statement because I had to find an intermediate length bolt for the Rigby, I wrote about with the Mauser number 100,dated 1898.

If you are looking for an intermediate length bolt and may be contend with a full 98 one, look among the military parts dealers for one from either the Turkish M1903 or the Peruvian 1909. These two are intermediates too. their bolt handles are straight, but of the same shape like the commercial ones. Cutting and rewelding them will do the trick and convert them to commercial shape like the Rigby's.

[sbakf]

Axel,

Thanks for your reply. I still haven't heard back from Larry (Schuknecht <shoptalk@dutchmanwoodworks.com), so I'll have to hold off on this one.

Correction:

" ... real cock on opening transitional rifle, ..."

I ask the seller about this, he said it cocks on closing. What is the significance of this, if any.


Thanks!

Steve

[Axel E]

To me, safety, firing pin nut and the cocking cam reinforce behind the bolt handle look more like a "normal" cock on opening transitional action, so I guess the seller does not quite understand the difference. Remember, the usual "cock on opening" 98 Mauser actions reallycock about two thirds on opening, one third on closing. To me, there is no significance besides: Instead of an ultra rare cock on closing, standard length action you get a very rare cock on openeing, probably intermediate length action. As the original bolt assembly is still with the action, I see no problem.

[sbakf]

Thanks Axel,

Remember, the usual "cock on opening" 98 Mauser actions reallycock about two thirds on opening, one third on closing.

Yes, I did make that observation. Actually made photos of this (measured) sequence in an earlier posting (post #21, photos 1-3).

Steve

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks, I wasn't looking for an intermediate bolt for the Rigby, I had already found one before I started putting it back together. I don't know what model it came from,I found it in a gun show as a separate bolt. It had a bent handle. There is a photo of this barreled action in WAIDMANNSHEIL number 41, but unfortunately, the right side is not shown.
Mike

[sbakf]

Morning Axel and ... ,

To Repeat:

Thinking you've finally kicked my butt down another path - away from the potential entrapments of an internet search.

With an added nudge from Mike, I became a paying member yesterday. Had a good conversation with John Spencer and he speaks well of you both (and others). I also ordered 2 books, as recommended by many:

1) Mauser: Original Obendorf Sporting Rifles, by Jon Speed

and

2) J.P. Sauer & Sohn: A Historical Study of the Hunting and Sporting Guns By the Original Company 1751-1945, by Jim Cate

I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to digest what's within. So much to learn still, but I'll have the time. Perhaps in the future, I'll be offering answers and not posting so many questions. Nah! - it's not my nature.

Anyway, thanks guys for the prodding.

Steve

GAMCAM - BBOP IN THE BOWL AT 8 49 AM 1-28-2015 AUTO EK002151.jpg