Any thoughts

[yamoon]

image.jpgHello
My wife gave me a Von Shatzl Martini Schuetzen for Christmas. In trying it, I find the fireing pin strikes very low. I assumed there was wear on the locking lugs, there was not. It is an 8.15x46r. Looking at the shadows on the block face, it appears the fireing pin is where it is suppose to be. Was there ever a primer designed to be struck on the edge and not in the center? Any suggestions welcome, I would like to shoot this old rifle.
Thanks Mike

[Diz]

yamoon, I hate to ask what may seem like an obvious question but do all the numbers match? I have seen a number of Martini's built from parts that don't quite go together. It almost looks like a rimfire bolt from the pattern on the face. I have four Martini's but there are many more adept at this action than I am. Good luck, Diz

[mike ford]

yamoon,
You didn't say how you got your cartridge cases. Most of us make them from 30-30 cases, and many made by custom loaders for sale to the public are also made from 30-30 cases. Experience shows that some rifles work with 30-30 rims, unmodified, while others need the rims to be reduced in diameter, and still others to be reduced in both diameter and thickness. With particular reference to Martini and Martini type rifles, we have noted that they sometimes strike the primer very low if the rim is a little thick and keeps the block from rising enough to strike the center of the primer, or near it. Another condition that acts the same way, is if the diameter is reduced, but the back edge is not radiused. The rim recess likely has a radius on the outside edge and a rim with a sguare corner may act as if it is too thick, even if measurements show otherwise. All of this is just a long way to suggest you check your rims for the source of your problem.
Mike

[Axel E]

Such an excentric position of the firing pin was a quite common gunmaking goof, but prmissible, if not wanted the time your rifle was made. It is a matter of fitting the barrel a tiny bit to tight against the breechblock, preventing it to raise fully up . Note, until after WW2 almost all 8.15x46R and other Schuetzen cases used the large, .250" Berdan primer M71, not the .212" Berdan M88 "large rifle". Your firing pin is well within this big primer, see it's position inside the primer circle mark on your breechblock. Hitting these big primers slightly out of center was an advantage for most Schuetzen then. It prevented the anvil, essential part of the case, from being hammered flat from frequent blows, making up for long case life. Many Schuetzen had just a few cases for their rifles, reloaded on and on without resizing. The only tool most Schuetzen needed was a tong type Berdan de-/recapper. The case was recapped, a factory pre-packed charge inserted and a factory swaged lead bullet pushed in with the fingers until stopped by the driving band, ready for the next go. An out of center firing pin helped in sorting the cases to the rifle they were fireformed in. Some Schuetzen even filed the tips to funny shapes for easier case identification. Today, with our much smaller "large rifle" Boxer primers, such out of center firing pins can pose a real problem, as in one of my combination "cape guns". I had to try several primer brands until I found some sensitive enough to reliably ignite with a hit near the edge.

[Axel E]

After reading Mike's post and looking at your photo agai I agree with Mike: Your Problem seems to be a too thick rim. Look at your photo of the breechface again: The pinhole is high in relation to the old primer burn circle on your breechface. So it hit high in the time of the using life of your rifle. As it hits low now, something now keeps the breechblock from rising high enough. This must be the thicker, 1.6 mm, rim of the .30-30 case. The 8.15x46R had a 1.5 mm max rim.

[yamoon]

Thanks for all the information, I have some RWS 8.15x46 cases, I will try them. I will have to make a v main spring as the original is missing. The spring installed is too weak to ignite any primer. Is there a source for a v springs, or is it a build one myself job.
Mike

[Diz]

yamoon,

I may be off the mark again but I never saw a "V" main spring in a Martini. All firing pins springs are coil springs as far as I know and they are susceptible to fatigue and get weak with age especially if left cocked. Check with "Atlanta Cutlery" at 800-883-0300 for a spring $40 in stock. Also International Military Antiques in Gillette, N.J. has a lot of parts.

Axel and Mike may be right on target and like I said there are more adept Martini guys out there than me. I am lucky never to have had the problem.

Thanks, Diz

[yamoon]

Diz
Thanks for the information. The Von Schatzl martini is not a true martini, it has an internal hammer powered by a v spring that strikes a free floating firing pin in the martini style block. I will certainly check the 2 sources you listed, as I don't want to manufacture a spring unless necessary.
Mike

[yamoon]

Diz
Thanks for the information. The Von Schatzl martini is not a true martini, it has an internal hammer powered by a v spring that strikes a free floating firing pin in the martini style block. I will certainly check the 2 sources you listed, as I don't want to manufacture a spring unless necessary.
Mike

[Axel E]

Diz, sorry, but von Schatzl's "Martini", one of the many varieties of a hammerless drop block Peabody action, had a V mainspring. instead of Martini's coil spring striker, it had a self-cocking hammer lock beneath the breechblock, mounted on a bottom plate. This lock had a V spring lying in front of the hammer in the bottom of the action. See Tom Rowe's "Alte Scheibenwaffen Vol. 2", page 112.
Maybe Dixie gun works catalog lists a V-spring that may be adapted by carefull trimming, using a Dremel cutoff wheel?

[mike ford]

yamoon,
Go back to Axel's discussion of primers. The .254" Berdan primer used in the original 8.15x46R was known as the M71 primer, which was developed because of ignition problems with the M71 Mauser rifle. This primer is much easier to ignite than todays large rifle primers, not only because of the diameter, but it was made of thinner and softer metal. Old hammer drillings chambered for cartridges which used the M71 primer often will not ignite large rifle (or even .217" berdan)primers. Some users of these drillings have satisfactory results with large pistol primers. In this case the rim can be thinned from the front, because the pistol primer is slightly thinner than the rifle primer. I suggest you try pistol primers before making a new spring. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost much, but if it does, you will be ahead.
Mike

[Diz]

Axel, that's why I like this forum, I learn something everyday.

yamoon, check Wolff Gun Springs at; www.gunsprings.com they have a lot of pre-made springs that might work.

Thanks, Diz

[Dan Patch]

The ignition problem the 71 Mauser faced early on was the fact the original UMC-developed large Berdan primer was domed. This had worked well enough with big hammers and strong mainsprings, but the 71's coil spring-powered firing pin found it a tough go, so the primer face was flattened. Worked fine after that. Dan

[Diz]

Axel,

Would you have a breakdown drawing of that action so I can see the differences? I am curious as to how it works.

Thanks, Diz

[Axel E]

As I wrote above, a drawing and photos known to me of the von Schanzl action may be found on page 112 of Tom Rowe's book "Alte Scheibenwaffen Vol.2", available from the GGCA bookstore on this site. Out of respect for Copyright I will not post them.
Gustav von Schatzl, 1854 - 1928, was an Austrian civil engineer. From 1887 to 1898 he was the director of the Ferlach gunmaking school. Actions to his design were made by Hugo Schilling, Suhl, and Emil Barthelmes, Zella - Mehlis.