Carl Stiegele 8.15x46R falling block

[PatBig]

Hello, I found an interesting rifle, signed Carl Stiegele Hof Gewehrfabrik Munchen. The action is a falling block, don't know what type. There's a very neat folding rear sight that can only be adjusted laterally a few fractions of an inch, and a large tunnel front sight. If used together the rifle shoots way too low, so I fitted a lower front sight that gives me correct height for 100 meters. There's a small safety catch near the rear sight, and the usual well made German set trigger mechanism. The barrel is short, 24". The rifle is rather light, about 8 pounds, in excellent condition, and a pleasure to shoot. I wonder what is the action, Stiegele design or other, and whether it was used for target shooting, or hunting, I tend to think the later. Thanks to help received before on this forum I think the rifle was made in 1926.

[Axel E]

Your Keilerbüchse = hunter's match rifle (not a Schuetzen target rifle) was merely retailed by Stiegele. It was made and proofed in Zella-Mehlis 4.26 = April 1926 as gun number 363 proofed that month. The barrel was made by MM, the well known Z-M barrelmaker Max Moeller, Forstgasse 7, Zella-Mehlis. I wrote sevral times about these "Ideal" falling block actions in "Waidmannsheil", especially numbers 40,41, 42, a publication of the GGCA. These actions were all made for the trade by a shop in Zella-Mehlis, most likely Hilmar Stoetzer , Wiesenstrasse 8. At least Stoetzer obtained a DRGM for such an action in 1908. You find these actions rarely on real Schuetzen rifles, but often on Keilerbüchsen and stalking rifles signed by many "name" makers. I have encountered examples signed by Simson, Schmidt & Habermann, Greifelt, Buechel, Glaser, Miller & Greiss, Kessler, Udo Anschütz and many more. Such rifles were once imported by fred Adolph and Paul Jaeger to the USA. They were also called many different names by the various wholesalers and retailers in their catalogs. But nearly all examples, regardless of the address of the "maker", were proofed and most likely made in Zella-Mehlis. My own sorry example, a short, 53 cm = 21" barrel, hunting rifle in 8x57R360,was proofed June 1912 and signed by Alois Schulte – Herbrueggen, Essen and Zella-Mehlis.






These true falling block actions are likely among the strongest single shot actions ever made in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis, superior here to most Schuetzen actions like the Aydt. I know about rifles with these actions in real powerfull hunting calibers like 7x65R and 9.3x74R.
Keilerbüchsen were more often than not scope sighted, other than Schuetzen rifles. A scope mount or an fully adjustable open rear sight was most likely once clamped on the rib of your barrel.

[sharps4590]

My Ideal action rifle is marked Fredrich Jacob Bartles....unless I got the first and middle name backwards. Without digging it out of the safe I don't remember the town. Wiesbaden, maybe?

[Axel E]

Friedrich Jacob Bartels, 1869 - 1926, Bahnhofstrasse 5, Wiesbaden, took over the shop from his father Carl B. in 1893. Succeded by son Carl B. 1926. Another of the many "Name" retailers of These Zella-Mehlis made rifles.

[Axel E]

Some more such actions, with 1930s bolstered action bodies, marked and maybe stocked and finished by:
unsigned

Kief,Peine

Greifelt, Suhl

Miller & Greiss, Munich

[Axel E]

Stoetzer 1927 ad. Note the open rear sight, clamped on the BBarrel rib.

[PatBig]

Thanks, very useful. I am looking for an adjustable rear sight to fit the rail, not an easy task even on German sites like Egun.

[yamoon]

Hello
I have a Stotzer Perfect falling block target pistol, would this be the same Stotzer that is in the above add?
Thanks Mike

[Axel E]

Hello
I have a Stotzer Perfect falling block target pistol, would this be the same Stotzer that is in the above add?
Thanks Mike

Yes. Note the advertising "Scheibenpistolen" = target pistols too. But Stötzer's Perfekt pistol is completely different from his rifle action. He is better known for his target pistols now, as most were sold and marked under his own name. His rifle actions were supplied to all the the guntrade and rarely are marked "Stötzer".
Btw, the German ö, Umlaut, either written as an o with two dots atop or oe, is a different vowel than German o, spoken about midway between English o and a.

[yamoon]

I have this rifle by an unknown maker. I am sorry to say some fool rebarreled it as a varmit rifle, 6mm-30 40 Krag. I have the original but the chamber is ruined. The original barrel has these markings, on the side is 8.15x46 normal 2367. Under the forend, SS, LH, Bl.G 11gr, 7.7mm, 46, 1.36, 278, 2367 & the crown over B, G, & U. I have The Standard Directory of Proofmarks by Gerhard Wirnsberger, is there a moe detailed text in English for German & Austrian proof marks.
Thanks Mikeiimage.jpg

[yamoon]

I have this rifle by an unknown maker. I am sorry to say some fool rebarreled it as a varmit rifle, 6mm-30 40 Krag. I have the original but the chamber is ruined. The original barrel has these markings, on the side is 8.15x46 normal 2367. Under the forend, SS, LH, Bl.G 11gr, 7.7mm, 46, 1.36, 278, 2367 & the crown over B, G, & U. I have The Standard Directory of Proofmarks by Gerhard Wirnsberger, is there a moe detailed text in English for German & Austrian proof marks.
Thanks Mikeiimage.jpg

[Axel E]

Mikei, your rifle was made up by the Zella - Mehlis guntrade for retail by a country gunmaker, who missed or spared to have his address marked on the barrel. Such German "noname" guns are quite common. Americans erroneously often call them "guild guns". The low 2367 serial number points to a smaller gunmaker who assembled the rifle on a Stoetzer action. Bl.G 11gramm = lead bullet 170 gr, 7.7 mm land diameter, 46 mm case length, 1.36 = January 1936, 278 proofhouse ledger number, BUG are the then prescribed proofmarks. SS and LH are no proofmarks, but unregistered marks of individual craftsmen who worked on the gun. As these marks were never registered it is now guesswork more or less to "identify " the craftsmen. My guess: SS may stand for the barrelmakers Seyffarth, Hermannstr.5, Zella – Mehlis. LH may be Louis Hengelhaupt, gunmaker at Am Hochwald 4, Zella-Mehlis. The pre-1940 whole salers and retailers were not interested to let their customers know, who really made "their own" guns. It was sufficient if the "maker" could identify the craftsman in case of a blunder. So most of these marks were a well kept trade secret of the guntrade.

No, I don't know about a single text more detailed than Wirnsberger's, neither in English nor in German. Another one is Gargela & Faktor "Zeichen auf Handfeuerwaffen", German translated from Czech. Both are incomplete and sometimes in error. Both don't even mention the 1893 – 1920 "Special 4000 atm" proof with the CROWN-crown/N marks or the use of lefger numbers by the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse nor the Oberndorf pre-WW1 "incomplete" proofmarks. You have to go back to contemporary German literature and decrees to find about much of the niceties.

[yamoon]

Thanks Axel
Mike