10 x 47R

[long.j.silver]

Hi –Just hopping someone out there may be able to help – my area more Rook rifles.

Just got this Rifle from a auction

The stock will need a lot of work – 2 parts with a mass of ??? holding it loosely together.

The rifle appears to be 10x47R – the chamber and barrel cast looks about right according to http://www.municion.org/Foerster/10x47RFoerster.htm.

The barrel cast measuring about 10.4mm at its greatest – difficult to measure as its the most complicated rifling I’ve seen.

The intension is to eventually to shoot it, so any help would be most appreciated.




What weight of lead bullet would be best

Any ideas on a powder and load

What type of sight it should have – and any clues where I may find one
(or where I could loan one to copy!)

What the missing cleaning rod should look like?

Many Thanks

Martin

[long.j.silver]

More photos of the Rifle

[sharps4590]

I did a fairly extensive work up on a 10.5 X 47R utilizing black powder and cast bullets with very good results. Normal bullet weight for the 10.5 was around 260-270 grs. so I would assume for a 10 would be in the vicinity of 220-230. One would think the cleaning rod would be a tough wood of some kind. In this country most likely hickory. The original may have had a brass or horn tip and the other end a threaded ferrule.

You don't mention whether or not you're aware of the parent case for the series of 47mm cartridges. It was derived from the 11.15 X 60R, (43 Mauser), shortened and necked to a few calibers. I am aware of a 9 or 9.5 and 10.5 but ignorant as to the others. I guess 1/2mm steps makes sense. Holpefully some of the other guys will be along and better enlighten both of us.

[long.j.silver]

No I had no idea about the parent case - I've got a die on order, and was hoping to use modified 348 Winchester brass

[Axel E]

Your rifle was apparently built in Suhl before 1893, as your photos show no proofmarks. The barrel was forged from Flussstahl = fluid steel by the Schilling forge, Suhl, S in hexagon. Guss Stahl = cast steel is just another wording.
The rifle is built on a simplified Mauser M71 action, but with Bornmueller's own patented safety. The Mauser flag safety was still protected by a patent. So Richard Bornmüller, Suhl, was the likely maker, though from 1875 on he acted mostly as a dealer and had "his" guns made by others.
According to Dixon there were at least 7 different versions of the 10x47R, differing in shoulder shape and position. Additionally there was a 10.25x47R , three 10.5x47R, four 10x46R and so on. All these cases were based on the MB Mauser M71, 11.15x60R case. In the „Good Old Times“ nothing was standardized when it came to cartridge and chamber dimensions. Each gun- or ammo maker had his own dimensions. Even country gunsmithes designed their own proprietary rifle cartridges, just different enough from the one offered by the competitor next door to preclude interchangeability. Thus the customer was bound to buy his cartridges at the same shop as he had bought his gun. Today this behavior is called “creating customer loyalty” and is found in the computer industry.
Cases for all these shorter MB base cartridges can be made from .45-70 brass. Mike Ford wrote an article about this for "Waidmannsheil", published by the GGCA.

[long.j.silver]

Thanks for that so helpful - any idea where I could find a copy of the article (what is GGCA?)

[sharps4590]

German Gun Collectors Assn. There's a big banner at the top of the page. This is the official site of the GGCA. Fine outfit, great guys. I think past publications are available from GGCA. I'll even solicit you a bit, hopefully in a polite way. If you have much interest in German firearms the publications alone are worth the price of admission.

You can use 348 WCF for the case, that's what Buffalo Arms does to make their 11.15 X 60R cases. I sacrificed a box of 43 Mauser cases for my 10.5 then replaced them. Bertram Brass makes the 43 Mauser but they're sort of pricey. 45-70 is a lot less expensive and I'm not certain they aren't easier to make the way Mike describes in his article.

Axel, by now I am no longer surprised at so many variations on a theme when it comes to the old cartridges. Thanks for posting that.

[mike ford]

long.j.silver,
I made cases for a similar cartridge from 8x50 Lebel, 7mm Mag, and 45-70. The 348 would be similar to 8x50, but would require an extra swaging step. By far the easiest and cheapest way is to use the 45-70 cases. The 11.15x60R has an unusual stepped rim, but the 45-70 rim can be moved forward at the outside to duplicate this. Then, the diameter will have to be adjusted to fit the bolt face. After this it's just a matter of necking the cases down and trimming to length. I prefer moving the rims forward, but a less elegant way is to neck the cases back in steps so the shoulder holds the rim back against the bolt face. Such cases work, if you load the cartridges with the correct dies, but I often use a combination of other dies, so rather have the "Mauser" type base. If you check the dimensions, you will notice 45-70 cases are a little smaller at the head, but not enough to hurt, and this is what makes 45-70 cases much easier to use. In my opinion, you have a fun project on your hands.
Mike

[long.j.silver]

Thanks Mike - very helpful

I think I should be getting some 45-70 cases - strangly cheap!

When you say "moving the rim foreword" - I was going to turn a ring and solder it on the root of the case -is this the right thing to do?

Thanks

Martin

[long.j.silver]

Thanks Mike - very helpful

I think I should be getting some 45-70 cases - strangely cheap!

When you say "moving the rim foreword" - I was going to turn a ring and solder it on the root of the case -is this the right thing to do?

Thanks

Martin

[mike ford]

Martin,
You could do that, but it would be a lot of turning and you end up with more swarf than ring. What I did was makeup a button die and use a "truckload tool sale" hydraulic press for the power. The article Axel mentioned contains a photo of the die. Since you mentioned turning "rings". I presume you either have a lathe, or access to one. If this is the case, you can make one button die and punch, and use it for as many cases as you need. You might even make up one that fits the ram of a heavy duty loading press. If the press has enough power to move the rim, then that combination would really be convenient. I agree with Sharps4590 that you should join the GGCA, I believe you would get a lot out of it.Furthermore as a member, you would get a discount on the reprint of the "WAIDMANNSHEIL"(one of the GGCA publications that come with membership) or any other publication sold by the GGCA.
Mike

[long.j.silver]

I now understand - yes I've got the facilities to do that. But I would have never tried for fear of just shearing the rim off!
I think you are right I should join.
Which magazine is the one with your article in it?

Thanks

Martin

p.s Any clues on what this cleaning rod should be like?

[sharps4590]

You won't shear the rim off unless you try. I did it the old way, with a die, a snug fitting rod in the mouth of the case and a hammer. Worked just fine...if a bit primitive.

If the rod was wood, which seems the most likely, look at about any muzzleloader. Occasionally I see German muzzleloaders on the various auction sites so a fella could look up some of them. If the rod is original the ad will usually say. Who knows how original the rod itself is? The ends may be but the rod could have been a replacement 120 years ago. Seems to me the ends of the rod is where the real question lies. Perhaps Mike or Axel can offer better and more correct info...

[mike ford]

Martin,
The article is: "11mm Ammo and Rifles" in "WAIDMANNSHEIL", issue #46, Summer 2011. I actually did shear the rim off the first one I tried, because I didn't have a radius on the edge of the step inside the die. I don't remember mentioning that in the article. Also make the first depression fit the rim closely, to keep the case centered, and don't turn the rim to diameter until after it is reformed. I can't offer any better advice than Sharps4590, concerning the cleaning rod.
Mike

[Diz]

The only thing I can add is to halve one of your cases and make the punch to fit the inside as closely as possible. This will spread the load, keep things aligned and reduce the possibility of damaging the flash hole. Also it will give you a better idea about what the die should look like. It shouldn't take too much pressure to move the rim. Good luck, Diz