8.15 x 46R for Schuetzen

[mike ford]

Vic,
Yes, many of the molds for 32-40 and 32 Win. Spec.(also some for 8mm Mauser) are within the range of diameters and weights appropriate for 8.15 bullets. Also, basepour molds for the 32/8mms can be shortened easily to adjust the weight downward, much the same as shortening the common 9.3mm mold to drop 200 gr. bullets.I often say the 32 Win.Spec. jacketed bullet(.321") can be used in 8mm rifles intended for .318", where they easily fit into a fired(unresized) case.I suppose jacketed 32 Win.Spec. can be safely used in 8.15 rifles meeting this condition.However, they might not stabilize in slow twist rifles( original 32 Win.Spec. had a fairly slow twist), hence my previous question about hunting rifles,etc. Just as in other cases, the rifle will tell what it wants, we just have to listen.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

I would like to comment on twist rates as I have miniature Martini’s in both 310 Cadet and 32 Win Special. The Martini in 32 Win Sp is a re-chamber with the standard Cadet barrel and rate of twist. So both barrels have the same 1 in 20” twist rate. I believe in this case since the rates are the same that velocity is more of a factor than anything else. Rate of twist sets the rate of spin but velocity sets the rpm’s and that is what gyroscopically stabilizes the bullet.

I shoot a 120 grain heeled bullet in the Cadet going 1400 FPS. By my calculations that is 50,400 rpm from a 1 in 20 barrel. The 32 Win Special has a 170 grain bullet of the same diameter and same rate of twist going 2200 FPS for something in the area of 79,200 rpm. (I hope someone would correct me if these figures are wrong.) But both are very accurate and show bullets point-on with no discernible yaw at 100 yards which is the furthest I have shot them. So I don't think it is completely dependent of R of T.

The only real difference is the 32 Win kicks like a mule in that light rifle!

Thanks, Diz

[Peter K]

Axel, did anyone ever play with paper patched bullets at Schuetzen competitions? Or was paper considered to be a jacket the same as copper?

Peter

[Axel E]

Peter, funny, but according to Bernd Kellner's book, old catalogs and old journals like the original Waffenschmied noone here in Germany ever played with paper patched bullets for the 8.15x46R. Reasons unknown, but not range rules. The rules merely prohibited jackets of metal harder than lead alloys. So greased lead was used exclusively.

[mike ford]

Diz,
I too use the 120gr heeled bullet in my 310 handloads, but at 1200 fps.This load matches the original ballistics and "follows the sights" in the cadet I most often use.It works great.Over the years I have turned down cadets in 32 Win Spec.,because of reports the twist rate was too slow. Based on your experience, it looks like I missed out.On the other hand, I would have likely only used cast bullets at much less than 2200 fps, and mine would have likely tumbled. It, in fact, is dependent on both rate of twist and velocity together. The problem crops up when the normal velocity is not enough for the twist rate. It has always been my opinion that reports of bullets being overstabilized are "bunk", they are either not stabilized or are stabilized. It is my opinion that inaccuracy of light bullets(when it happens) in fast twist rifles is likely caused by the long lede in chambers cut for heavy bullets.In some cases a light bullet can leave the case before it engages the rifling. If(when) it tips before engaging the rifling, it will be damaged. Of course, there are plenty of people that will say I'm "full of it".
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

I for one will not say that. I don't believe in over-stabilization either. At 3400 fps my vom Hofe is spinning almost 392,000 rpm with a 1 in 6.25" twist and will cover ten shots with a dime easy at 100. Yes I think you would have problems with going slower in the 32 Win Sp but I have been thinking about it in order to tame down the recoil. I replaced the steel butt plate with a beaked "Silvers" style pad from Griffin & Howe to give a bit of length and cushion the kick. It is much more manageable now.

Martini - 32 Winchester Special.jpg

I think a good mold casting something in the 130 grain range might just be the ticket and then really back it off. Of course once you do that you may as well stay with the Cadet. I may just try to back it off until failure just to see what happens. It may be a good experiment to see when the limit really is.

My Cadet seems to like the extra speed and the sights are on out to 100. I am using a CBE mold with the small heel. I am very happy with the mold and cast them fairly hard with Lyman molylube.

Do you happen to know the twist rate of your Cadet. I have heard that there are some with twists as fast as 1 in 16.

I love this board, it keeps me thinking.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
No, I didn't check twist rate in cadets, they may be different, one is BSA, the other 310 is a Greener; other cadets are different calibers(22 hornet, 357 mag) so not in discussion.My 120 gr heeled bullet mold is RCBS. I guess you could try the CBE bullet in the 32. You might have to take the expander plug out or necksize with 32 S&W/auto sizer to get the neck small enough for the "heel". Not likely to require shortening case. Something like Lyman 32359 might be worth trying. You could shorten a 32/8mm mold a grease groove at a time until you find a weight you like. Of course you can't put it back if you don't like it. I didn't shoot the 5.6 for groups, just trying to get a handle on velocities. If I could cover 3 shots with a silver dollar at a hundred, I would be satisfied, a half dollar and would be happy. Still having a lot of trouble with email, last one took over an hour.I don't have the problem here(once I get in), so I'm happy about that.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

I used bullets made in a RCBS mold and the heel was too big in diameter. Once they were seated in the case it expanded enough to keep the case from seating all the way and these are the short length Bertram cases. Apparently this is not uncommon with the Cadet chamber. Rather than mess with that I found CBE in Australia made one for the purpose. Very nice brass mold that casts a sharp bullet. No more fussing with turning the heel in the lathe.

That vH accuracy came with the old H870 powder but what I didn't mention is the bore had to be cleaned (just wiped out with a solvent patch and dried) after every three shots or by number five it would be off the paper. I won a couple of bench rest matches with it and my 77 grain bullet. I'm hoping you will be pleasantly surprised with your's.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
Thanks for the tip about cleaning,it makes sense. My 310 ammo loaded in 32-20/32S&W dies for the BSA, wouldn't chamber in the Greener,so I had to buy real 310 dies.I didn't turn the heels, I just ran the cartridge w/seated bullet back into sizing die, pushing from the top with a dowel, while lowering the ram(to keep from pulling the case off the bullet).
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

That trick may have worked and I have 310 dies but I cheated and bought a mold. I believe the interference was three or four thousandths. More than I wanted to mess with. I would still be very interested in the R of T on those two you have. By the way, I had no luck at all finding a Schuetzen at the most recent show so I will continue to look.

H-870 worked great in the vH but burned like that black powder Sharps is so fond of. Ha!

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
It might take a while, but I will check the twist rate in the BSA and Greener barrels. I don't think I have any H-870, but if it works great maybe I can find some.If it just burns dirty, I can live with that. What I don't like about the "blooming" ole BP is the corrosive nature or residue that gets inside the guns; barrels, I can live with.
Mike

[DreyseM65]

Interesting thread. I am gennerally focused on other areas of collecting and shooting, but I too am about to take the plunge into getting my own 8.15 x 46R.

I have Schützen rifles in both 4mm and .22LR, but recently fired a 8.15 a few months ago at a Columbia Schützenverein event in Maryland. I found it shot pretty well out to 200 yards.

BTW, there is a book in German on this caliber. It is listed on the following website;

http://www.patronensammler.de/buchtipps.html

[Axel E]

BTW, there is a book in German on this caliber.

In this thread I already quoted from that book several times See the posts about twist rates and bullet weights, non-use of patched bullets.