16H bullet

[yamoon]

Some questions concerning the 16h bullet. Was the original 16h bullet a stop ring design? It is my understanding this design was the most popular target bullet and many pre WW2 schuetzen rifle chambers were throated for this bullet, correct? Were the 16h bullets cast or swaged? Were the swaged bullets stop ring? Are current German matches still using stop ring bullets?
Thanks Mike

[mike ford]

Mike,
It is my understanding, the 16h bullet is "stop ring" but I don't know if it was the "original" or a modification. I believe it was swaged but there is little doubt that several cast versions have been available. Other members are much more knowledgeable about this subject than I. It happens that I have a very small supply (not shooting quantity), including the 151gr jacketed version. If you PM me your mailing address (maybe, you have before), I would be happy to mail you a sample of each in support of your research.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, where did you find the “16h” designation for a “standard 8.15x46R bullet? I cannot find it in any of the factory bullet lists in the old catalogs I have. Neither in the RWS nor in the Akah, Burgsmueller or other listings. Oce there were more than a dozen companies offering swaged lead bullets for target shooting. Nothing was standardized then, neither bore or rifling diameters nor twist rates or chamber throats. There was a bewildering range of bullet shapes, diameters and weights offered nearly all with a “stop ring”. Here is just part of the offerings by RWS alone in 1908:
[img]https://up.picr.de/43600400tk.jpg[/img]



<img src='https://up.picr.de/43600400tk.jpg' border='0' />

There were three bullets with a number 16 listed, 16, 16S and 16J. Apparently number 16 was offered as a black powder standard factory load by Burgsmueller and Akah in the 1920s, called 16 Normal then. Made of soft lead it weighed 170 gr. Shank diameter (Caliber) was given as .320”, stop ring (Fuehrung) as .330”.
But all those old bullets are things of the past, collector’s items now. The few enthusiasts still shooting the old rifles have to use American made equipment now. Most use the H&N swaged bullets now. Some cast their own bullets, the Lyman # 323470 mold being quite popular. Nobody makes stop ring bullets any more. Haendler & Natermann only offers swaged factory bullets of .321” diameter, greased or plastic coated, weight 149 and 170 gr. These are simple truncated cone design, without any stop ring. The 170 gr ones are usable in barrels with 12” or shorter twist, while the 140 gr are usable in all barrels. There are a few offerings by small custom bullet casters too.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I was answering yamoon's question from memory. I had acquired a small quantity of two different bullets with a rifle I bought in Germany during my first tour 1971-74. Being swaged bullets, at least one of them had 16(and I believe h) stamped on the base. When I wrote the article about the 8.15x46, I remember measuring them, While I don't remember the precise measurements, I do remember they had the stop ring, which I posited as the likely reason some have reported "bore"(not defined) diameters over .330". Cast "stop ring" bullets are or have been offered for sale, advertised as a copy of the German bullet. I recall Buffalo Arms as a supplier of these bullets. All the above bullets were in the range of 170 grains, as I recall. The 151grain jacketed bullets came from a gunsmith friend near Ft. Bragg NC in around 1975, together with other bullets, various cases, Berdan primers, and tools which his father had brought back from Germany earlier. as I recall, they are the standard flat nose RWS bullets with (I believe) the acorn stamp on the base. I don't shoot in competition, so when I shoot my own 8.15x46R I use bullets from a Lyman mold intended for the 32-40, but I also have a set of Lyman # 323470 mold blocks as you mentioned above. I have never used the H&N bullets. If you like, I can mail you a sample of the two swaged bullets or when I have a chance, dig them out and verify the numbers stamped on the base and weigh them again. If you can find my article in WAIDMANNSHEIL, I may have been more precise concerning the numbers on the base.
Mike

[yamoon]

Axel, Mike
I don’t have any reference except Alte Scheibenwaffen, I got my information from Vol III pages 268 & 269, referring to the Stiegele 16H being the most popular bullet for the majority of shooters. I appreciate the information you provided. If I were a few years younger, I would attempt to learn German so I could widen my references to include those that are not translated to English, but then again I have enough problems with English.
thanks again Mike

[Axel E]

As you are referring to “Alte Scheibenwaffen Vol.3” as your source, why do you ask for the dimensions of the #16 bullet (called 16 by RWS, 16H by Stiegele)? They are all given in the drawing on page 269, Fig.184a, more accurate than I can provide them. It’s just a matter of using a pocket calculator to convert them from the (alien to you) millimeters to inches. Just divide the numbers by 25.4! The commas are used by Germans instead of your dot for decimals. The Stiegele drawing Just gives the maximum dimensions with the -0,02 mm = -.0008” tolerance, while the RWS catalog gave the minimum diameters. Identical #16 bullets by other makers, Stiegele and Dornheim, are shown in Fig.182 and 183. The H suffix just indicated harddened lead with some tin and antimon, used for smokeless loads, slightly more expensive. Black powder loads used plain, soft lead.

[yamoon]

Axel
Thanks again, the primary reason for the post was to find out if stop ring are still in used in German matches. I shoot them because I am lazy. I determined from your answer that fixed ammunition is now the norm. Like I said I like shooting stop ring and will continue. Thanks for the information about 170 & 140 stabilization. I currently have 2 stop ring molds, one was made from the drawing in Vol III the other is a spire point.
Thanks Mike