what powder in your german schuetzen......

[mike ford]

30calmike,
Do you load it the same as blackpowder, and if so, by weight or volume?
Mike

[30calmike]

I load to weight. BH209 is not volume/weight equilivant to BP. It is “bulky” so full case loads are not difficult to achieve. It does require the use of magnum primers. I use Federal 215M for most loads.
Mike.

[sharps4590]

I don't use BH209 because it isn't any better than black powder, if you know how to use BP in cartridges, and costs about 3 times as much. Can't imagine how anything cleans up any easier than BP in a cartridge rifle, 5-7 patches and I'm done. Back when I was shooting competitively a 40 round match without cleaning was easily doable, IF your loads were right.

[mike ford]

30calmike,
Thanks.
Sharps45-90, You know how I am, about black powder in my old rifles, that have already been damaged by BP corrosion. It would be different If I were shooting modern replicas in BPCR.
Mike

[Diz]

Ever since Sharps brought me over to the dark side I started investigating alternatives to BP. Information I got was that Blackhorn is essentially a smokeless powder very much like the old bulk powders from back in the day. But with some potassium nitrate and sulfur added and they recommended cleaning with nitro solvents. The potassium nitrate and sulfur byproducts can form sulfuric acid in the presence of water and that is corrosive. It is my opinion that most of the corrosion in the old guns was due to the byproducts of the mercuric primers used in those days and was difficult to remove. I like straight BP and it is the only powder allowed in the BPCR matches I shoot. It does clean easily with water but I also think thorough cleaning with the correct materials is a must with any powder. Diz

[mike ford]

My objection to BP was not cleaning the barrel, it was having to take the rifles apart, in detail, to insure residue doesn't do additional damage. The care of a 110-150 year old rifle is more critical than of a newly made replica. My impression of the problem with mercuric priming was it's effect on the brass in the cases. To avoid this, I will "break down" mercuric primed factory ammo, to save hard to find cases. I respect that others can make their own decision.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I've read both ways on the mercuric priming. Fortunately I've not had to experience either one and frankly, I honestly don't know if one or both are correct. Mostly I'm glad I don't have to worry about it.

I understand Mike and did know that....wonder how...lol!

About 15 years ago I bought a can/bottle of every fake black powder I could find with the exception of Pyrojunk. I'd already been down that road and didn't like the stuff at all. I am convinced it is as corrosive as black powder if not more so. The fakes I remember being able to find were Triple 7, GOEX Clear Shot which is no longer available and a Pioneer something? Clear Shot was easily the most accurate and possibly because its velocity was slower than the other two. Clean up was easy as I remember. The Pioneer stuff....man, that was some kind of nasty stuff. Velocities were erratic at best, accuracy non-existent and fouling was gray and hard and equally hard to clean. It definitely made a bad, lasting impression. Triple 7 was plenty accurate, velocity was about 100 fps higher than BP in the two cartridges I tried it in, a 45-90 and a 40-70 and clean up was as easy as black powder. BH209 did not exist at the time. Of those I tried if it ever gets to where I cannot get the real thing my choice would be Triple 7. In talking to those who use BH209 I don't believe I would like it if for no other reason than it doesn't fit my opinion of how an imitation should act. Were it the only choice of imitations I doubt I'd use it. If I'm going to be using a semi-smokeless, which is what it basically is, I'd go to one of the much less expensive, several smokeless powders that work so well in the old cartridges. Which is why I never intend to run out of holy black.

[Diz]

I agree that the old primers were very hard on brass but I think the metallic salts that were formed did damage to the barrel as well. It absorbed water from the air and started rusting after firing. Fortunately, it cleaned with water just like BP fouling does but I think those soft steels of the day took to rusting very easily. I also hate to take apart a gun unnecessarily but find it a must with BP. I shoot two replica BPCR’s and have custom ground screwdrivers and a cleaning station just for that purpose. I investigated alternatives to BP but my results have been so good with the real stuff that I never saw a reason to actually try any. All the reports I read never made me think it was that much better and some not as good. I believe in using what works for you and it may not work for everyone. The matches I shoot don’t allow it or even duplex loading and will randomly check your ammo.

[mike ford]

Diz,
You are correct that the old primers were damaging to barrels, but what I read about them is the mercury didn't do that, it was the rest of the compound. Of course that could be wrong too.

Sharps 4590,
I got really excited over Golden Powder, when it was first announced. It was non-corrosive, and I managed to get several bottles from a friend that was investing in the company. I shared it with my hunting buddies, but is was so inconsistent that we couldn't even sight our muzzle loaders in. Do you know anyone that needs some Golden Powder?
Mike

[Diz]

Mike, on further reflection I believe you are right about the mercury fulminate caps, it was the potassium chlorate caps that were the real culprits. My guess is the ground glass in the mix didn't help things either. Diz

[30calmike]

I shot competitively with BP for about fifteen years back in the 1970’s and 1980’s. I never liked having to disassemble the rifles for cleaning which is a must. When I got into single shot cartridge guns I didn’t want to deal with the BP crud and initially went with available smokeless loads. I didn’t get satisfactory results and looked for alternatives. That’s when I tried BH209. Some people claim it can be corrosive, but after using its for four years I have never experienced that problem. I do clean the bores after shooting as recommended. The residue has never given a problem. Unlike BP, I don’t have to wash cases just the usual sizing and tumble. It is expensive, but only about a third more than BP. What I have found is extremely uniform velocities when correctly loaded. SD’s less than 10 are not uncommon. I have even developed very accurate loads for a TC Hawkin in .50 cal.
One down side is having to shoot out-of-competition at sanctioned matches, but that doesn’t bother me; I still have a good time. Many of the silhouette matches I compete in don’t fuss about powder.
Like anything, it takes some time and R&D to develope good results and I have been very pleased. Some successful testing was done out to 600 yards . I have nothing against BP, just “been there, done that” .
Mike.

[sharps4590]

Mike, I remember Golden Powder or, at least reading about it. I don't remember ever seeing any or personally knowing anyone who tried it. From your results evidently it's just as well I didn't find any. Goodness....how long ago has that been?

30cal., I can appreciate that. I admit to be a pretty hard core traditionalist. If I'm going to shoot a BP firearm, whether cartridge or muzzleloader, it is my intent to duplicate a closely as possible the way they were originally used, from beginning to end, loading, shooting to cleaning. Thus I doubt I'd use a fake BP if it did perform better, which in my experience they don't. 20 years ago we were shooting our Shiloh Sharps out to 1000 yards and the results were impressive to me, given BP, cast bullets and iron sights. It goes without saying that at that range they wouldn't keep up with the 300 Win. Mag. tactical rifle I'd built up. Goodness that rifle would shoot!!! The 40-70 previously mentioned has held MOA out to 600 yards when all the conditions were right and I was having a good day. I haven't had the opportunity to shoot that particular Shiloh any farther.

Back in the 70's and 80's there wasn't any matches locally for BPC rifles but there was some kind of ML match every weekend. Were you shooting muzzleloaders back then or was your area a decade ahead of the Ozarks?

[mike ford]

Sharps4590,
It is hard to remember exactly when we went through the Golden Powder "phase". It must have been in the late 80s to early 90s. We used to go to a State forest every year, for a primitive weapons hunt. The hunt was either sex and we camped for two days. We had a blast, killed a few deer, and made memories ( several of the guys are no longer with us). It was for these hunts that I got the Golden Powder. As I remember, it was written up in the gun magazines and then "went silent" for a couple years. It came back, supposedly with the "problems" worked out. It was going to be used for gun powder, blasting, and other industrial uses. It didn't work out for gunpowder, I don't know about it's industrial uses. We didn't participate in any ML matches, although there were some within driving range. Later on one of the guys went into SASS pretty strong( now out of it), and another shoots BPCR.
For whatever it is worth, it was non corrosive like they claimed, I left a barrel uncleaned for a year to try it-no rust.
Mike