Bullets & chambers

[yamoon]

Hello
Just waiting for 5:30 am befor heading for the game fields. I have several schuüetzen rifles, but 2 I wish to shoot more than others, a Büchel Meister & a Konkurrence. From reading Tom Lowes books, it appears that both fixed ammo & stop ring bullets were used. Is there any way to determine which these rifles were chambered for, throat length, or other things that can be determined from a chamber cast. I wish to order a mold cut for each. Was one method favored over the other?
Thanks for any input
Mike

[mike ford]

yamoon,
I know less about shooting schuetzen rifles than anyone else on this board. Here are a couple things to think about while waiting for someone that knows what they are talking about to pipe in. Stop ring bullets were made for people that shot an entire match, using one case, w/o resizing (sometime "everlasting" type case). This case was primed and then charged with prepackaged charges, then a bullet was seated. This happened over and over, until the match was finished, and the case was not resized the entire time. A "stop ring" was the only feature that allowed a consistent bullet seating depth. Unless you intend to adopt this method, or have some bullet fit problem, you won't likely need a "stop ring" bullet. Buffalo Arms sells several different bullets, especially for schuetzen rifles. This would allow you to find a satisfactory bullet, before having a custom mold(s) made.
Mike

[Axel E]

yamoon, there was not any difference in chambering for "fixed ammo" or "stop ring bullets". Apparently you think those lead bullets with a "stop ring" were meant for breech seating, the purely American practice where a bullet is seated seperately into the barrel, before the powder charged case was loaded behind. This kind of loading was completely unknown in Germany. As Mike noted, German Schuetzen always reloaded their cartridges, though using a single case for an entire match was unusual too. But that reloading was done with a bare minimum of tools, most often with a Berdan capping/decapping tong only, just as Mike described. Very few shooters ever resized their cases. If cases did not fit the chamber any more they were given tto the local gunsmith for resizing. A bullet seater was needed for loading fresh or freshly resized cases only, so this was a tool of the gunsmith too most often.

[yamoon]

Mike, Axel
I have been shooting schüetzen rifles for 30 years. I currently shoot the rifles mentioned above with a NEI mold that cast a 165 gr stop ring bullet. I prime, & charge a single case, place the stop ring bullet in the case, point the muzzle up to load the prepared cartridge. I feel these rifles should be more accurate, so a custom mold to fit the rifle. From your replies I am going to order stop ring molds. I have made a chamber cast of both rifles. I have made brass from 30-30 cases I intentionally left them long, after fire forming,I trim them a few thousands at a time until they chamber with the stop ring bullet inserted, that way I insure the stop ring seals against the throat. I was surprised at the chamber variations. The Meïster chamber is considerably longer than the RWS 8.15x46r cases, hence the cases manufactured from 30-30 cases.
Thanks Mike

[mike ford]

yamoon,
I don't know why I giving you any advice, I should be asking for your advice.
Mike

[Axel E]

yamoon,
please, reread my article "Normalisation in Germany", Waidmannsheil! #56: Before 1909 case and chamber dimensions were not standardized. every gun- and cartridgemaker used his own set of case dimensions and chambering reamers. The 8.15x46R Normal, as we know it today, was agreed on in 1909, but as a recommendation only. Before, many different case shapes were used. Dixon and Anderhub,Kellner & Techel list these varieties: 8.15x46.5R, Frohn, Uttendoerfer and Egestorff shapes, 8.15x46R, Frohn normal, Stahl, Hartstang, Teschner-Collath and, finally, Normalized. There were even some other cases on the same "B"base, 8.15x40R, 8.15x52R and a 8.6x47R. So take nothing as granted if you work with a pre-WW1 rifle.
I have already told you about the bewildering of "8.15 mm" lead bullets by many makers, when it comes to shapes, diameters and weights.

[yamoon]

Thanks Axel, I just joined in July so I have not read the article, but I am looking forward to it. You emailed me copies of previous articles on the Austrian Alex. Henry, I enjoyed them. I am looking forward to learning a lot from this forum.
Mike