Prussian 10 gauge

[Ranman]

Prussian ten gauge I believe about 1892. Diamond Quality with barrels cropped to 22 inches . Locks up like a vault and thinking I should shoot it with some low pressure smokeless. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[mike ford]

Can you post photos of barrel flats and any proofmarks and other markings?
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Can you post photos of barrel flats and any proofmarks and other markings?
Mike

Also, a close-up or a clarification of the marked area would also be useful/interesting

01-lettering.jpg

Peter

[Ranman]

I will take a better image of the side scroll today.”CHARLES DALY MADE IN PRUSSIA “

[algmule]

Hello

Stamped on guns from January 4, 1893 (some say January 1) up to and including March 31, 1893.

EDIT: forgot the image.

01-V.jpg

Peter

[mike ford]

The Vorrat Zeichnen is normally found only in one location on the top of the barrel. Also, the 1892 date needs to be verified, I have been under the impression this mark was used in 1893 instead. There is a similar British mark that makes me wonder if the gun traveled through a British proof house before 1893. I am not very adamant about this and wouldn't argue much with another explanation.

[algmule]

Hello

I have changed the year. Senior moments sometimes happen.

As for location, I will translate a document when I can find time. Neither German nor English is native to me.

I apologize for the senior moment.

Peter

[Ranman]

These are much clearer.

[Ranman]

Has original butt plate, would this be horn ? Thanks for the responses.

[mike ford]

Ranman,
It is hard to tell from a photo whether it is horn or Bakelite. If you can remove it and touch a needle that has been heated to red hot to a hidden spot, the smoke will smell like hair burning if it is horn.

Peter, I hope you don't think you are the only one that has senior moments. For me they are often much longer than a moment.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

294. Bekanntmachung betreffend die Anbringung der Vorrathszeichen auf Handfeuerwaffen.
Nach der Kaiserlichen Verordnung vom 20. Dezember 1892 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt S. 1055) tritt das Gesetz, betreffend die Pr?fung der L?ufe und Verschlusse der Handfeuerwaffen, vom 19. Mai 1891 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt S. 109) zum 1. April 1893 seinem vollen Umfange nach in Kraft. Nach diesem Zeitpunkt d?rfen in Deutschland di eder Pr?fung und Abstempelung unterliegenden Handfeuerwaffen ohne die vom Bundesrath vorgeschriebenen Stempel nur dann noch feilgehalten oder in den Verkehr gebracht werden, wenn sie vorher mit dem von dem Bundesrath bestimmten ”Vorrathszeichen” versehen sind. (? 5 des Gesetzes). Ueber letzeres trifft Siffer 22 der Bekanntmachung des Herrn Reichskanzlers vom 22. Juni 1892 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt S. 674) n?here Bestimmung.
Zur Ausf?hrung des ? 5 des bezeichneten Gesetzes wird nunmehr Folgendes bestimmt.
1. Die Anbringung des Vorrathszeichens erfolgt
1) f?r den Bezirk einer Stadtgemeinde von mehr als 20 000 Einwohner sowie f?r die Stadt Suhl durch die Ortspolizeiverwaltung,
2) im Uebrigen f?r die in der beigef?gten Nachweisung aufgef?hrten Bezirke durch die dabei bezeichneten Ortspolizei beh?rden.
Den Regierungs-Pr?sidenten bleibt ?berlassen, innerhalb ihrer Bezirke weitere Stellen mit der Anbringung des Vorrathszeichen zu beauftragen; solche Anordnungen sind durch das Regierungsamtsblatt zu ver?ffentlichen.
2. Die Anbringungn des Vorrathszeichens erfolgt auf Antrag der Einsender frei von Geb?hren und Kosten. Die letzeren Fallen gem?? ? 5 des Gesetzes der mit der Anbringung des Vorrathszeichens beauftragten Beh?rde zur Last. Jedoch verbleiben dem Antragsteller die Ausgaben f?r Fracht und Porto sowie sonstige Ausgaben f?r den Transport, einschlie?lich des Verpackungsmaterials. Die Versendung erfolgt auf die Gefahr des Antragstellers; f?r die R?cksendung hat die zur Anbringung des Vorrathszeichens zust?ndige Beh?rde Sorge zu tragen.
3. Der Stempel f?r das Vorrathszeichen mu? von der zu dessen Anbringung bestimmten Beh?rde gegen Entrichtung des Kostenbetrages aus der K?niglichen Gewehrfabrik in Spandau bezogen und nach dem 1. April 1893 vernichtet werden. Die Verwendung anderer Stempel ist unstatthaft.
4. F?r das Verfahren sind die Vorschriften der Ziffern 20 und 22 der Bekanntmachung vom 22. Juni 1892 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt S. 674) ma?gebend. Das Aufslagen des Vorrathszeichens mu? durch Sachverst?ndige erfolgen; in Garnisonorten werden hierzu auf Antrag die B?chsenmacher der Truppen gegen eine Verg?tung gestellt werden, soweit dies ohne Beeintr?chtigung ihres Dienstes geschehen kann.
Ueber die gestempelten Waffen ist eine Tagesliste zu f?hren, in welche die ersteren nach Nummer und Herkunstsort unter Angabe des Einsenders einzutragen sind. Die Liste ist zu verwahren. Die Waffen sind pfleglich zu behandeln.
5. Ueber Beschwerden entscheidet die der beauftragten Stelle unmittelbar vorgezetzte Dienstbeh?rde endg?ltig.
Berlin den 4. Januar 1893.
Der Minister Der Minister
Des Innern. f?r Handel und Gewerbe.
Graf Eulenburg. Frhr. v. Verlepsch.
zu B. 11156 III. M. f. H.
” II. 16515. M. d. Inn.

Here is a translation. It is performed by Google Translate and I know it is not perfect. If you are unhappy with it, translate yourselves or maybe go bawl at Google Translate.

294. Announcement regarding the affixing of in-stock marks on small arms.
According to the Imperial Ordinance of December 20, 1892 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt p. 1055), the law regarding the testing of barrels and breech of small arms, dated May 19, 1891 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt p. 109), will come into full force on April 1, 1893. After this point in time, the handguns that are subject to testing and stamping may only be kept for sale or brought into circulation in Germany without the stamps prescribed by the Federal Council if they are previously marked with the “in-stock mark” determined by the Federal Council (Section 5 of the Act). Regarding the latter, see No. 22 of the Reich Chancellor’s announcement of June 22, 1892 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt p. 674).
In order to implement Section 5 of mentioned law, the following is now stipulated.
1. The in-stock mark is attached
1) for the district of a municipality with more than 20,000 inhabitants and for the city of Suhl, by the local police administration,
2) otherwise for the districts listed in the attached documentation by the local police authorities specified.
The Government Presidents are free to commission other bodies within their district to apply the in-stock mark; such orders must be published in the Government Gazette.
2. The in-stock mark will be affixed at the request of the transmitter free of fees and costs. According to Section 5 of the law, the latter cases are the responsibility of the authority responsible for attaching the in-stock mark. However, the applicant remains responsible for freight and postage expenses as well as other transportation expenses, including packaging materials. Shipping is at the risk of the transmitter; the authority responsible for affixing the in-stock mark must take care of the return.
3. The tool for the in-stock mark must be obtained from the Royal Rifle Factory in Spandau by the authority designated to affix it against payment of the cost and destroyed after April 1, 1893. The use of other stamps is not permitted.
4. The provisions of numbers 20 and 22 of the announcement of June 22, 1892 (Reichs-Gesetzblatt p. 674) are decisive for the procedure. The mark must be issued by experts; in garrison locations, the troop’s gunsmiths will, upon request, be employed for this purpose in return for renumeration, as long as this can be done without impairing their service. A daily list must be kept of the stamped weapons, in which the former must be entered by number and place of origin, stating the transmitter. The list must be kept. The weapons must be treated with care.
5. The service authority directly in front of the commissioned body makes the final decision on complaints.
Berlin, January 4, 1893.
The Minister The Minister
Of the Interior For Trade and Commerce
Count Eulenburg. Baron von Verlepsch.
To B. 11156 III. M. f. H.
” II. 16515. M. d. Inn.

About location



and here is what is under No. 20. You do the translation yourselves.

20. Bei L?ufen, welche eine Schwanzschraube oder einen Hinterladerverschlu?, Verschlu?geh?use, Verschlu?block oder Verschlu?kammer haben, mit welchen die L?ufe verbunden oder verschlossen sind, soll der Beschu?stempel und der Untersuchungsstempel, den die betreffenden L?ufe f?r die einmalige oder die zweite Beschu?probe erhalten haben, auch auf den Schwanzschrauben, Hinterladerverschl?ssen, Verschlu?geh?usen, Verschlu?bl?cken, Verschlu?kammern und bei Revolvern auf den Patronenlagerwalzen aufgeschlagen werden.

Also: as people tend to think I sit up at night making things up, here is a snippet from the above translated text regarding the in-stock mark. I could well have posted the entire thing but for obvious reasons I do not.




Mike,
the thing about senior moments is that they keep coming daily now. Scary, to say the least.

If someone have a document, preferably an official one, that state January 1, 1893 for the in-stock mark I will happily stop posting/saying/stating January 4, 1893. I am annoying, not impossible.

Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
I, for one, never thought you made things up. In fact, you seem to usually document everything you report. I think translations cause most of the misunderstandings. As poor as my German is I find the Google (or other automatic) translations even more confusing and try to avoid them. Axel understands the languages and, more important, the technical terms, so his translations are much better than Google's (in Google, the German word for barrel translates to "running" and the word for rifle translates as "can"). Since I don't speak Spanish, at all, the Spanish automatic translations (in Municion.org) are almost impossible. I think my understanding (likely misunderstanding) of the German version of No.22 is what caused my belief that the normal location of the Vorrat Zeichnen on a kipplauf is on the top. BTW, I never found you annoying or impossible.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

I agree Google Translate is not perfect. However, if you “nudge” it a wee bit it at least becomes somewhat useful. See below image. If you click the little v-shaped arrow and scroll down you get for L?ufen the translation barrel. Admittedly in singular but far better than running. Also, I have found that translations sometimes differ if you do not observe the upper-case letter at the beginning of German nouns, and I suppose gerunds, as well. I do not know when they changed it but it used to be you could give suggestion in Google Translate if you were not happy with the given translation. Maybe you still can but I have forgotten how to. The more we use Google Translate the better it becomes. I am happy it exists because it gives me some understanding of German texts.

01-translate.jpg

Now you go and try Google Translate with the word Verschluss. Do not forget to click the little v-shaped arrow for further suggestions and scroll down. It does not give you a perfect translation but I believe someone not familiar with German at least gets some understanding of the word Verschluss.

Mike,
The words under 20. in my earlier post may be too much for Google Translate. I have not tried them. My issue with translations is I am working two languages - German and English - which are not native to me.

I took German classes at school. A long time ago now. I sat next to a friend whose mother was German so he was more or less fluent in German. He offered help but it did not help me much. I usually say that if Johnny Rotten had been born in Berlin my German would be better. As it turned out he was born in London and consequently my English became relatively OK.

Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
You are lucky that you were able to study German in school. I never was able to study any foreign language in school and the "English" was more "American", with the sentence structure of English but with American word meaning. I moved from America to a foreign country (Viet Nam) for only one year but was lucky enough that for the time I commanded a company I was provided an interpreter. This was my first chance to understand that English/American sentence structure is backward from most of the rest of the world. Without an interpreter, GIs spoke to the locals in a "pidgin " language composed of some English, some Vietnamese, some French, some words leftover from WW2, some made up terms and all the while GIs thought they were speaking Vietnamese. It took an ex- English teacher interpreter to make me understand that was not Vietnamese at all. I went from there to a different foreign country (Germany) where there were around 250 local dialects in addition to "High German", Hunters language, technical engineering terms, technical or antique gunsmithing terms, and had to start leading a diverse workforce. Some spoke fluent English or American, some spoke only German (either proper or one of the dialects), but was lucky enough to have three translators to translate German specifications to English and English contract terms to German. I learned here that word for word translations were not enough, the correct meaning had to be expressed to make the contracts enforceable (one word I remember being asked about often is "fix", whether in the text it meant to fasten or to repair). It should be understandable that sometimes my idea of the meaning of something may be mistaken. Like in the United States however, the availability of television has had the effect of making more and more Germans speak with no (?) or the same dialect.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

If someone have a document, preferably an official one, that state January 1, 1893 for the in-stock mark I will happily stop posting/saying/stating January 4, 1893. I am annoying, not impossible.

Again, if you feel an urge to bawl at someone/something, go bawl at Google Translate. If you feel like wearing horns on your head, feel free to do so.

Gesetz, betreffend die Pr?fung der L?ufe und Verschl?sse der Handfeuerwaffen vom 19. Mai 1891. Die "Bayerische Handelszeitung" schreibt: Nach einer Kaiserlichen Verordnung vom 20. Dezember 1892 tritt ? 5 dieses Gesetzes mit dem 1. Januar 1893, die ?brigen Bestimmungen deselben - ausschlie?lich des bereits in Kraft getretenen ? 8 - aber mit dem 1. April in Wirksamkeit. Nach ? 5 des Gesetzes sind Handfeuerwaffen bis zum Inkrafttreten des ganzen Gesetzes - also nunmehr bis zum 1. April 1893 - auf Antrag der Einsender von der zust?ndigen Beh?rde mit einem durch den Bundesrath bestimmtem Vorrathszeichen zu versehen. Wir empfehlen unseren Gewehrfabrikanten und Gewehrhandlungen dies unverz?glich vornehmen zu lassen, da vom 1. April 1893 ab die amtlich nicht gepr?ften oder mit dem Pr?fungszeichen nicht versehenen Handfeuerwaffen nicht mehr feilgehalten oder in den Verkehr gebracht werden d?rfen. [January 4, 1893]

Law concerning the testing of barrels and breechblocks of handguns dated May 19, 1891. The “Bavarian Trade Newspaper” writes: according to an Imperial decree of December 20, 1892, ? 5 of this law comes into force on January 1, 1893, the remaining provisions of the same – excluding ? 8, which has already come into force – but comes into effect on April 1 [1893]. According to ? 5 of the law, handguns must be provided with an in-stock mark determined by the Federal Council by the responsible authority at the request of the consignor until the entire law comes into force – i.e. until April 1, 1893. We recommend that our gun manufacturers and gun retailers have this done immediately, as from April 1, 1893, handguns that have not been officially tested or do not bear wear the test marks may no longer be kept for sale or placed on the market.

01-Paragraph5.jpg

Kanske ?r det s? att "Sj?lv ?r b?ste dr?ng"?


EDIT:

Berlin, 28. Dezember. [1892] Das Gesetz ?ber die Pr?fung der L?ufe und Verschl?sse der Handfeuerwaffen vom Mai 1892 hat bis jetzt nicht in Kraft gesetzt werden k?nnen, weil in Preu?en die Vorbereitungen dazu noch nicht beendet waren. Die ?brigen Bundesregierungen hatten sich damit einverstanden erkl?rt, da? das Gesetz am 1. Januar 1893 in Kraft trete. Jetzt hat auch die preu?ische Regierung eine Erkl?rung dahin abgegeben, da? das Gesetz zum 1. April 1893 Geltung gewinnen k?nne. Im Interesse der deutschen Gewehr-Industrie hat sich das als bringend w?nschenswerth erwiesen. Hierzu mu? der ? 5 des Gesetzes, welcher die M?glichkeit bieten soll, vorhandene Best?nde an Handfeuerwaffen schon vor dem Zeitpunkte, mit welchem s?mmtliche Bestimmungen des Gesetzes in Kraft treten mit einem beglaubigten Stempel, dem sogenannten Vorrathzeichen, zu versehen, eine gewisse Zeit vor den ?brigen Bestimmungen des Gesetzes in Kraft gesetzt werden. Es ist deshalb beim Bundesrath die Zustimmung zu einer Kaiserlichen Verordnung beantragt worden, wonach der ? 5 des Gesetzes ?ber die Pr?fung der Handfeuerwaffen mit dem 1. Januar 1893 Geltung gewinnen soll, w?hrend die ?brigen Bestimmungen des Gesetzes, insoweit sie nicht schon Geltung haben, mit dem 1. April 1893 in Kraft treten sollen. Der Bundesrath hat den Antrag auf Erla? der Verordnung angenommen. [31 December, 1892]

Berlin, December 28 [1892]. The law on testing the barrels and breech of small arms of May 1892 has not yet been able to come into force because the preparations for this had not been completed in Prussia. The other federal governments had agreed that the law would come into force on Januar 1, 1893. Now the Prussian government has also made a declaration that the law could come into force on April 1, 1893. This has proven to be very desirable in the interests of the German rifle industry. For this purpose, ? 5 of the law, which is intended to offer the possibility of stamping existing stocks of handguns with a certified stamp, the so called in-stock mark, before the time at which all provisions of the law come into force, must be given a certain amount of time before the other provisions of the law are brought into force. An application has therefore been made to the Federal Council for approval of an Imperial Ordinance, according to which ? 5 of the Act on the Testing of Small Arms is to come into force on January 1, 1893, while the remaining provisions of the Act, insofar as they are not already in force, are to apply and should come into force on April 1, 1893. The Federal Council has accepted the application to issue the ordinance.


Peter