Trying to identify Prussian Daly

[Craig Havener]

Thanks for your input, I am still working to better identify the piece.

Hi “feuerwerker”,

Yes, correct, Sauer’s oldest trademark is the “Wilde Mann” or in English, the “Wild man with the club”. But that’s of course no big deal.

Regards

Martin

but important enough, the caveman is a stupid idiot and the Wild man is a noble man in its own right.
he support the shield on the escutcheon of kings and noble knights and was therefore worthy to become the symbol of the sauer factory.

I picked up the wildman designation from this post.
Best Craig

[ellenbr]

True it is our counterparts in Germany that label the image as a wildmann. It matters not to me whether Hercules/Neanderthal/whatever was a cave dweller or lived in the bush. Also, a 1912 date just is not supported by peripheral data and if one holds to sequential serialization along with supporting info, the probability that it was completed post 1905 is very, very small. It is not a rebanded Daly. There is little means of establishing a 1911/1912 date save a copy of the entry in the Sauer ledger. If you don't hold with sequential serialization, then just pick a model in a catalogue with a similar image and equate the date of the catalogue to the date of manufacture.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Craig Havener]

Well, it does not match any known Daly gun. It has more features and engraving than a model 40. It has more features and engraving than a model 14. The barrels have the inset Sauer Medal, and a different texture pattern on the rib. Probably built 1903 time frame based on ser #. I was able to finally measure the chambers, and the are 2 1/2 inch. The finishes on the gun are close to 100%, it does not appear to have been fired much. A very interesting Charles Daly!
Best,
Craig

[Craig Havener]

Received my copy of Jim Cates book, excellent work and reference, Highly recommended! Wish I could find the same type of work on Daly's! Anyone with any leads?

Best,
Craig

[Jim Cate]

First, Daly did not utilize Sauer's Model numbers. Secondly, I believe it is a Model 40 due to the presence of the cocking indicators which were not standard on the Model 3 or Model 30. It only has arabesque engraving on the bottom of the receiver rather than the standard 2 dog engravings. So maybe it is a custom Model 30 with cocking indicators. I learned to never say never when it comes to Daly shotguns simply because they special ordered a lot of guns for their customers rather than ordering "standard" guns with the regular descriptions supplied by Sauer. Thirdly, I still believe it was made in the 1911/12 period and I base that on the serial number data I have in a rather large database. Regards, JIM

[Craig Havener]

Thanks for your for your input. Were Daly guns also usually marked with the manufacturers name? This gun is clearly marked "Charles Daly" on the action, and J.P.Sauer & Sohns on the top of each barrel, and the inlaid Sauer medal on the lug? It has more arabesque engraving then a Sauer model 14 that I have, both round tops, but different action sculpting.
Your thoughts are appreciated,
Craig

[HANOVER]

Information/etc low ser# 5xx daly(lindner h.a.l.) gun/ and krupp stahl 16 double

Any information or input also few small parts for either..low serial # 5xx daly lindner 12 ga sxs double damascus numbers,hammerless,30" brl matching # all original (missing butt screws/and set screw on receiver) parts anyone,values discussion.thanks

[HANOVER]

Daly double 12 SXS #5xx

Daly double 12 #5xx

[HANOVER]

Daly double 12 SXS #5xx

Pictures lop 14" drop if i measured correct 2 1/2"

[sauercollector]

Sauer-Daly's in the JPS&S 106,XXX serial number range

Well I am getting into this discussion rather late and it would appear from the entries that some folks think the noted Sauer is a grade 40. I do not believe that this is case. I sincerely believe that this Sauer was ordered by SDG to be appointed as a 225 Grade Daly (No ejectors).

From my decades of observations and note taking about pre-WW1 Sauer long guns, and input from other advanced JPS&S collectors, it has been noted that the very early scalloped frame Sauer shotguns had the larger radius sculpting at the rear of the guns frame, similar to HA Lindner guns. Also, from direct observation and prolific note taking by myself and others, there are a number of Sauer Daly shotguns in the 106,XXX Sauer serial number range.

Granted, the HAL Daly's were being ordered and imported by Schoverling Daly & Gales however some of the very lowest graded Dalys are present here in the United States as JPS&S produced, and Charles Daly branded guns. (Most all these shotguns are in the 106XXX Sauer S/N range as previously noted). This particular Sauer-Daly may have been an attempt by SD&G to quickly fullfill an order for a customer or may be an attempt by SD&G to represent the Daly "brand" prior to HAL coming fully on line and providing the necessary inventory for SD&G. Or perhaps HAL could not fulfill this particular order in a timely manor and since they (SD&G)already had great contacts with Sauer it would have been a rather easy item for JPS&S to produce. My estimate for date of production is around 1903 or 1904 time period.

You can check with Griffin and Howe in NY to see if this particular Sauer-Daly is in their database. There is a cost associated with this service but it would be worth investigating and reporting back on, in my opinion. Let me know if you decide to persue. Or drop me a PM? Thanks much and best of luck with your investigation! Results might prove very interesting. Regards. Jeff S.

[Craig Havener]

Thanks for your input! I will try G&H to see if there is more data available.
Best,
Craig

[Craig Havener]

Well, talked to Bob Beach at G&H and the gun is not in their records. I don't believe it can be a model 225, with the intercepting sears, cocking indicators, and gold stock shield and inlaid medal. Also it has much more engraving. Still looking.

Best,
Craig

[sauercollector]

Craig....big tip off here is that the gun lacks ejectors. It is a lesser grade double gun.....and it is definitly not a 275 grade HAL or a model 17 Sauer, which both had ejectors. Beautiful though it is, it is just not in the higher end catagory of HAL/JPS&S produced guns. It is more like a Sauer model 14 than anything else, in my opinion. (as an aside and to address you what you stated above, the Sauer Model 14's had intercepting sears!). Don't misunderstand what I say here. It is a very nice(!) piece and in excellent condition and worthy of admiration. My view is that it is in the HAL Daly 225 grade catagory and nothing higher as it does lack ejectors. For what it's worth....Jeff S.

[Craig Havener]

Jeff , I think we agree on several points, It is very close to the Model 14, I had stated that earlier, the main differences are the additional engraving, the inlaid gold medal on the front barrel lug, and the special "checker board" pattern on the rib, and the better wood. I don't think the Model 40 usually had cocking indicators, which this does. In Cates book, he notes the model 14 could be ordered with ejectors. He also notes that the Model 17 usually had ejectors, but did have better wood and engraving than the Model 14. The features are clearly more toward the Sauer guns than the Daly guns. But it is marked Charles Daly. The wild card so to speak is the gold "Wildmann" inlay medal on the front lug.
Thanks for your help. If you wish to discuss further, you can contact me directly at, craighaven@gmail.com
Best,
Craig

[ellenbr]

Havener:
Here is 106389, if I can read it correctly:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/PRU...n_id=100443517

I can lift the images & post them if need be.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse