Waffen Museum Suhl

[m-4]

Please correct me if I am uninformed, but wasn't the reason for Damascus Steel tubes originated out of necessity as technology did not exist to cast, roll or bore long lengths? Was not the solution to hammerforge helical hammerforged ribbons around a mandrel to create a straight tube that could be turned to shape & rifled? I thought the bbl's were quite nice and plenty strong for BP & lead bullets of the time, I also don't see anymore problem in rifling Damascus vs Early steel tubes as a rifling broach type tool was probaly used. Wouldn't a titled Hofbuchsemacher with top shelf clientel build with the best available materials & components? I think Damascus was concidered the best tube steel for quite some time & was widely used until the new fluid steel proved itself, probally more in cost than quality originally.

m-4

[mike ford]

M4,
I'm likely to be corrected,and forcefully, but here goes.You are correct that the earliest barrels had to be forge welded from a ribbon around a mandrel.This included rifle barrels,which were rifled in a satisfactory manner.We all recall the story of Remingtons begining by forgewelding his own rifle barrel, due to dissatisfaction with others. These forgewelded barrels were made of the same material and pretty heavy. Also forgewelding lends itself to making octagonal barrels, with the hammer and files; without much other equipment to form the outside. they would not have used broached rifling,they wouldn't have equipment with enough power to pull the broach through the barrel.Instead they would have used cut rifling, where the grooves would have been cut one at a time, in many "passes" for each groove.Each pass would remove only a small amount of metal, virtually a scratch.This was ok for rifles using black powder. However,such barrels would be too heavy for useable shotguns, and there was a need for barrels with wall thickness that would be strong enough to hold the pressure(even of blackpowder) and still light enough to be "handy". Some unknown smith decided to combine the swordmakers trick of combineing steel and iron in layers with the barrel makers procedure of forge welding a ribbon around a mandrel. This resulted in a barrel material that would be light enough yet strong enough to hold the pressure. The different materials( iron and steel) had different hardness and rusted differently.This resulted in the pleasing patterns these barrels are known for, and different makers went to great lengths to make differing patterns; even logos and words.At the same time the necessary strength was retained.This was wonderful for shotgun barrels, but the different materials reacted differently to the single point rifling cutter, resulting in less than acceptable rifling. The old system would have been satisfactory for rifles, but some wanted the pattern ( for looks an/or strength). Someone finally found the solution described by Axel. In the forgewelding process,the interior tube is welded to the exterior patterned material and there is no visible "joint". The tube can be adequately reamed and rifled and still have the desired pattern.If a barrel is relined with a new liner, the joint is visible, sometimes obvious. This is why it is hard for some to believe patterned rifle barrels usually have a liner.
Mike

[ellenbr]

As I've said before, let us see some cross-sections? For sure down to 38 bore or possibly even 50 bore, I am very skeptical that a liner will exist. Definitely by 1870 the Belgian tubes had permeated all the gunmaking centers and they were pattern welded tube makers to the world. Real definition and patterns didn't really come into being or were not under protection until say 1890. If you go back to say the Modell 1869 Zündnadelgewehr, those should wear the term stahl which differentiated from wrought iron. With the possibility of Sham-Dam event, I cannot see where a rifled pattern welded tube is not designated to be a composite of windings as well as a cast insert. Let us see the profiles.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

I guess it is possible that the number of these pattern welded tubes with a ghost rifled liner will equal to the number of London imported fluid steel tubes. But the Germans, like all the others, were sourcing the Belgians because they had perfected thru mechanization the pattern welded tube effort. The practice of a Sham-Dam tube was made illegal at some point. So if it is illegal you are not going to get it from the Liege craftsmen, whom everyone was sourcing, so it would have to be home grown and very few were rolling their own, but sourcing.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Backing up a few years and with the ignition platform being percussion, anyone want to include the dueling pistols on the band-wagon and tell me that they too have a ghost rifled liner? All you true believers step forward and promote the cause.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Raimey,
I'll help.If you supply the barrels, I will mill or grind the pattern away and then we can settle the question. Don't bother with shotgun barrels, the discussion is only about rifle barrels.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Ford, I don't think the burden of proof is upon me and I only have some early fluid steel tubes that have been sacrificed. I'm not sure on your button approach for the new fangled types of rifling like Henry, Metford & Rigby. Those coupled with broach cutting seem to have arrived approximately the same time in the mid 1800s. Although broach wasn't fully integrated into mechanization say till maybe WWI. From the images I've seen there was a water wheel linked to an inside gear that was flanked with 2 smaller gears that had shafts with bits of some type. There was a wooden block on the other end that bound and stabilized a round piece of steel that was to engage each shaft by an external handle. With these new complex types of rifling and considering the hands-on aspect of drilling, it is possible that a broach cut was used on a limited basis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Raimey,
I wasn't trying to put the whole thing on you, I said I would do all the work. I understand the boltways in boltactions were broached,but this is different than barrels, and button rifling is different still. In button rifling, a "button" is pulled through the barrel and "irons" all the grooves in at once. Furthermore, the barrel blank has to be full diameter to the muzzle or the groove diameter there will be larger than the breech end.The barrels are tapered later.I believe most of the taper in a damascus rifle barrel comes from the forge. I think button rifling is a relatively recent procedure, and done with hydraulics rather than a waterwheel and gears. What type bits were connected to your machine? It sounds more like a reamer, or single point cutter. All things are possible,of course,and I would like to learn how rifling would be broached during the time these barrels were used.
Mike

[Axel E]

Raimey, your ignorance of European history, economic conditions and of the techniques actually used by the European gunmakers always baffles me! You often assume that a certain process came into general use a short time after it was patented somewhere in the world. It isn't so, but more on this later.
As you assume that a gunmaker like S&S or a gun tinkerer like me could be fooled by a "sham dam" aka "damas faux" aka "imitirter Damast" you merely show that you don't know what it is and when in the process of gunmaking it was applied. Yes, you are right, making guns with such barrels was outlawed in Belgium for a short time, but allowed again because of "popular demand" because of the volume production of cheapest guns for the "colonial trade" by the Liege gunmakers. But when allowed again, each such barrel had to be marked on the underside with the words "damas faux". At least the 1908 AKAH catalog still listed the cheapest Belgian hammer shotgun as featuring "imitierte Damastläufe", as does the 1910 Burgsmüller one. As true damascus barrels went out of fashion then rapidly, so did the shamdam barrels. But the Liege guntrade still offered quite ornate small bore muzzleloading shotguns for South American markets with such barrels until the 1960s. At least I remember them being offered here "new" alongside Italian and Belgian replica "Colt Navies" and "Kentucky rifles" in the 1970s.
Damas faux was applied to the iron or steel barrels right at the end of gunmaking, with the barrels assembled, fitted, filed , polished and degreased, ready for bluing or browning. Only now a damascus pattern was applied to the white barrels, using asphalt or another masking paint. Simple "twist" patterns were painted on, more ornate patterns were put on using printed decals. After being masked in part the barrels were etched, transferring the patten to the steel surface. After etching the barrels were browned, the high spots being lighter in color while the deep ones became darker. If on such a barrel the browning is worn bright in a place, it can of course not been restored. Other on the Damascus clad rifle and dueling pistol barrels: Here the pattern welded layer is about ½ to 1 mm thick, so the pattern can be brought back to life by proper rebrowning, unless the layer is worn through by careless draw filing or grinding.
Pattern welding did not come from the east, merely the name Damascus was given to the technique about 1800 from the Indo-Persian sword blades that came to the west via that Syrian city. These sword blades were not pattern welded, but made by a lost crucible steel making process called "wootz steel". This steel also showed a very fine ladder like pattern as a result of the steel making, but is an entirely different thing. Pattern welded sword and seax blades were common in Europe from the 4th century on. At first they were pattern welded out of necessity, as large amounts of steel to make a complete blade was not obtainable. The early blades consisted of several strands of twisted "damascus" and two narrow edges of solid steel. Soon more elaborate patterns evolved, a prime example being the Sutton Hoo sword from the grave of king Raedwald of East Anglia, died about 620 AD. By 800 steel making had advanced. Now the whole bade could be forged of solid steel, but for decorative purposes thin strips of Damascus were still welded onto both sides running down the center of the blade. This is now called veneer Damascus, the same technique used much later to decorate rifled barrels. The same technique is descried by W.W. Greener, page 238 as a "formely common practice, now used only for heavy duck gun barrels". I will come back to rifling in another post, only this now: The American broaching process was not used in Germany, button rifling by Lothar Walther only post-WW2.

[Axel E]

Broaching rifling grooves into barrels is a quite recent technique. IIRC the first American gun having a broached barrel was the M3 Grease Gun of WW2. At least the barrels of Springfields, P17 Enfields and Garands were still rifled using the time-honored single cutter, cutting one groove at a time. According to Hatcher's Notebook two-groove barrels were made during WW2 for Springfields and Enfields, both by Springfield Armory and Remington, to speed up production. This would not make any sense if a process like broaching or button rifling was used, as here all grooves are formed in a single pass. And to the British barrels which usually have an uneven number, 5 or 7 grooves. the theory here was: the single scraper cutting head is supported by a land directly opposite the groove it cuts. How the grooves of the rifling look like, be it Henry, Whitworth, Metford, ratchet or Lacaster oval bore, merely depends on the shape of the single cutter. The Mauser factory also cut rifled all their barrels, at least to 1937, see "Notes on Manufacture of the Mauser 98 Rifle" by K. Trotter at the end of Lud Olson's book "Mauser Bolt Rifles". Only during WW2 hammerig barrels was developed, but used mostly for machine gun barrels then. Here a steel billet about a foot long, bored and reamed to groove diameter, is inserted into a special hammering machine. A very hard mandrel with the future lands and grooves on the outside is inserted into the blank and the machine hammers out the final profile inside and out. The barrels go into this machine cold and leave it too hot to touch, more than double the original length. This procedure is now used by most of the larger European barrel makers like Steyr, Merkel, Dumoulin and others. But the Ferlach guntrade still cut rifles all their barrels. The Ferlach people even insist on final reaming and rifling the barrels only after all soldering of ribs, sight- and sling swivel bases is done to avoid any warping and stresses from heating. When I visited Ferlach some years ago, I was shown a very fine, fully engraved and finished sidelock drilling. When I opened it I saw a very small hole, just like a .22 lr chamber in the rifle barrel, but no rifling. When I asked about it I was told the would-be customer was still free on deciding about caliber, "anything from 5.6 to 8mm is possible". This is why the British gunmakers like H&H, Westley Richards or Paul Roberts send their rifles to Ferlach if reboring is required, f.i. from .350 to .375.
When the Iron Curtain fell in 1989 I learned that an independent barrelmaker was still active in Suhl. Fritz Schilling, Gothaer Strasse made all barrels for the Bühag plus special order calibers for the VEB E. Thaelmann Werke, cut rifled of course. He also rifled all match barrels for the GDR Olympic team. He not only bored and rifled the barrels, but also brazed the breechends and the rough barrel lumps. I had old Fritz Schilling rebore and rerifle a Brno ZKK barrel from .375 H&H to .416 Rigby when the GDR still existed. He was working in sort of a chicken shack then, together with an equally old journeyman. But his rifling machine was even much older: it was made by Ludwig Loewe / DWM about 1890! After Fritz Schilling passed away his equipment was taken over by western German, Ferlach trained master gunmaker Max Ern. Max once told me he fears the day when Fritz Shilling's handmade reamers and cutters finally wear out, as replacements of like quality are available nowhere. Here you may see Max Ern and Fritz Schilling's old rifling machine at work:
http://max-ern.com/english/laufziehen.htm

[ellenbr]

Indeed, Axel indeed. I too was most impressed with your efforts when you reached the pinnacle of ignorance by sticking your foot in your mouth with the liner comments. And it may be you that needs to sit in an economics class as I think my transcripts will reflect my credits. And to me, your post doesn't even warrant a response from me as I find the tone a bit distasteful but since I am firm in the knowledge that others think along the sames lines regarding a ghost liner in a pattern welded tube I will mount a response. Others are a bit reluctant to engage & post considering the bulling and hawking techniques you employ, so I will continue. You've had a couple of weeks to develop some proof but all you have put forth is some dribblings of a mixed history less along with distracting tangents for post 1900 all combined to form a pontificating diatribe of sorts. Nothing more that throwing dung at a wall to see what sticks. You do not provide any supporting evidence for an iron/steel ghost liner in a pattern welded tube. Instead you delve into rifling when the topic at hand is did or did not the Germans put Doublure or ghost lined tubes with a mere veneer exterior on their sporting weapons?? I know you will find something wrong with it, but for argument's sake lets hold H. Scherping's active date range and possibly narrow it from the time of his master's brief till say the time of the German proof law. M-4 has a ½ dozen of H. Scherping's offerings with 5 or the sporting weapons wearing some form of rifled pattern welded tubes. Some give that the as early as the mid 1830s that mere veneer, faux damascus, imitation de damas, doublure, imitation damascus via decalcomania transfer(possibly via silk), etc. became commonplace. Apparently there were several types of mere veneer, faux damascus, imitation de damas, doublure, imitation damascus via decalcomania transfer, that ranged from a decalcomania transfer of a pattern on a iron/steel tube(cost was about $ 0.12 U.S of A. to transfer) that had just recently experienced proof and was brought back to the maker along with a little thicker mere veneer or think ribbon of damascus, all being considered inferior. Tube makers were in the business to make money and tube sourcing agents stopped by the tube makers shops looking for price-point components and the makers or their wives & children turned them out. I don't care what you call it, mere veneer, faux damascus, imitation de damascus, doublure, imitation damascus via decalcomania transfer it was price point sourcing capitalizing on deception as well as catchpenny frippery, which may go a long way in describing your ghost iner theory. Tube numbers are very difficult to verify, but some numbers are tossed around that as many as 200k tubes per year were being exported from Liege by the 1890s possibly with a mark, as you note, that denoted a tube of mere veneer, faux damascus, imitation de damas, doublure, imitation damascus via decalcomania transfer. It is possible that many of these were assembled as flintlocks and went to the Belgian Congo as I have seen some rattle-trap single shot central fires in that area. For the most part, this was the task of small firms where women & children are purported to have been paid about a ¼ of a dollar a day to complete the task. Also the price-lists reflect the same low ball commodity with the iron/steel ghost liner/doublure-mere veneer having a exterior of Imitation Twist, Imitation Boston & Imitation Crolle ranging from 3 to 4 Francs per brace at the time. So you are going to tell me that an upper rung firearms merchant/waffenhändler like H. Scherping is going to source price point/inferior tubes with a seemingly pattern welded tube on the exterior and a iron/steel from Liege made by women & children to have put on his wares? Or if you don't believe in the sourcing aspect, you are going to tell me that mechanics at Suhl/Zella Sankt Blasii – Mehlis were rolling their own inferior tubes? Some English accounts give that the Germans were also producing inferior tubes in one respect or another but for now I don't think along those lines but contend they were sourcing the craftsmen of Liege, who may have begun their world wide sourcing by 1870 or surely by the Paris Expo of 1878. One aspect that makers/users considered inferior was that in the event of a failure, the pattern welded tube was vents its gases thru the welds while the iron/steel cast had imperfections and the result would be like shooting rock salt with a bit more mass. I realize that rifled pattern welded tubes were only employed for a short time-span as the wagon of technology was driving the fluid steel tube wagon-train, but a pattern welded tube was a pattern welded tube was a pattern welded tube. Any combination of pattern welded layer and iron/steel was deception. Produce a price-list or verbiage that describes the pattern welded ghost liner process. I think the rifling aspect is a distracting tangent and should be a separate topic but others I have conversed with note that it is an integral part.

[ellenbr]

There are essentially 3 methods to detect a mere veneer, faux damascus, imitation de damas, doublure, imitation damascus via decalcomania transfer, 2 of which may be considered destructive testing with one being to lop off a segment of the tube and dissect and the other being to apply a small amount of sulfuric acid on the inside of the tube of the muzzle to see if the pattern on the inside matches the pattern on the outside. A form of non-destructive testing would be to closely follow the the bands fore and aft to see if there is any discontinuity in the bands. If the makers were very good, then this method may be suspect. If an area is suspect on the exterior of the tube, sulfuric acid will also reveal the pattern or if some type iron/steel liner exists. Regarding your Sauer, don't know the date, but during the time period we are considering, Henri(Henrich) Pieper & Sauer were really chummy. Henri(Henrich) Pieper was born in the same area as Heinrich Barella, if I am not mistaken, & Henri Pieper although he seems to have changed his 1st name, still held with his German roots. Sauer could have easily sourced a Doublure tube thru Henri Pieper.


I see that you've selected some text from one of W.W. Greener's efforts. He was a very difficult man and wrote history as viewed with blinders thru his eyes, giving credit to those he deemed worthy while not giving a nod to others who had made advancements in technology. He also needed to be more receptive to a difference in opinion and you might want to take note, remove the blinders and exorcise the demons in an attempt to get at the truth. There is your version, my composed version & the truth nestled somewhere. I have interviewed several folks who have visited the some of the museums through out Europe and your liner theory just does not hold water along with some of the percussion pistols were Damascus and are devoid of a liner. I realize that the terms for pattern welded tubes varies over time. But you can continue your bulling & hawking, which will get us no closer to the facts as well throw the stones you want to at me since I'm bullet proof as I wear a Superman's suit. If you believe so in this liner folklore you are propagating, let's see your cards. Otherwise, fill your hands ole boy and let's dance.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[C. Roger Bleile]

I would hate to see two such distinguished German gun experts shoot each other in a (verbal) dual. This an interesting and informative debate, nevertheless.

[mike ford]

Roger,
I agree. From the outside, it seems that two different things are involved in the argument.Raimey is talking about fake patterns to make barrels appear to be patternwelded, when they were not. Axel, on the other hand, seems to be talking about a liner in a real patternwelded barrel to make it possible to have decent rifling. I'm sure some pattern welded barrels were rifled with out a liner, otherwise how would they know they had to do something else to get a decent barrel. Also, considering the commercial advantage of making good rifle barrels,I wouldn't be surprised to learn they didn't advertise the process very much.
Mike

[Axel E]

I don't see a need to continue this discussion. Alas, this thread was about the Suhl museum in the first place.