Hunting calibers (prefer 6.5mm)

[oskar]

I think it's the age, I'm 10 yrs older than the 16x16x7x57R in the pictures and I'm feeling it. I live a mile from one of my duck blinds and can haul my decoys the first 3/4 mile on a cart but from there to the blind I have to put them on my back through the tidal marsh and I find myself replacing the big duck decoys with teal decoys and replacing the decoy weights with longline clips and clipping them to weighted lines I leave hidden in the brush.

I too have too many to get going, I have a Manufrance Ideal in the safe that arrived last fall and still hasn't had a round through it. My 9.3x72R is all put back together just needs the wood refinished. All the reloading stuff arrived for the 6.5x58R Sauer and Furhmann sent me some data from a German reloading manual. I usually hunt from Oct to March but promised my wife I'd remodel the kitchen, living room and den last summer but got sick so I started it in Jan and gave the coyotes a break this winter. Hopefully next month I can get back out in the gunshop.

[mike ford]

Last year I had to drive to two ground blinds and a tower that has a staircase instead of ladder. I haven't been able to follow a bird dog in years. I'm hoping to be able to walk in next year and climb a ladder. We hunt in the woods on elevated stands and on food plots, but not allowed to hunt over mineral salt or bait.
Mike

[N9NWO]

The 6.5x52R uses a .257 bullet, the 6.5BRM uses a .264 bullet.

So the barrel bore would not be the same even though the case is based on the .30-30?

[sharps4590]

No, they aren't, .007 difference. One is actually a quarter bore and the other a true 6.5. Case necks would also be different diameter and might be a different length also as the shoulder angle and diameter. I'm not all that familiar with either cartridge but those differences in dimensions could hold true to any comparison of cartridges based on the same case.

[mike ford]

What sharps4590(vic) said is correct, but if you note earlier in the thread thare was mention of 6.5x58R Sauer. This cartridge usually has .260,sometimes .262" groove diameter. We have to cultivate the habit of checking groove diameters, regardless of the nominal caliber. We have to be especially watchful for 5.6, 6.5, 8, 9.3, and the various old black powder cartridges.
Mike

[oskar]

Cartridge nomenclature can be very deceiving. In American cartridges for example, 218 Bee, 219 Zipper, 220 Swift, 221 Fireball, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 224 Weatherby and 225 Win. all use the same .224 bullet. In Europe for example 6.5's come in a plethora of sizes, 6.5x40 Sauer(if you believe Donnelly and COTW I have brass but no original loaded ammo) bullet size of .250, 6.5x52R is .257, 6.5x47R & 58R is .260, 6.5x57 is .264 and the 6.5x52 Carcano is .268 and in many of the old cartridges there was no standardization of bore sizes and depending on the barrel maker groove diameters were quite different in the same cartridge.

Sharps, the 25-35 Win is the standard 30-30 necked to .257, the 6.5BRM is pretty much a 30-30 Ackley Improved necked to .264 loaded for strong single shot rifles.

Just a side note, the 25-35 Win, 25 Remington and 25-36 Marlin are nearly the same cartridge with the Rem being rimless and the Marlin with a slightly longer neck.

[mike ford]

25-35,25 Rem, and 25-36Marlin are all very similiar, ballistically;but are considerably different in body shape.
Mike

[N9NWO]

Cartridge nomenclature can be very deceiving. In American cartridges for example, 218 Bee, 219 Zipper, 220 Swift, 221 Fireball, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 224 Weatherby and 225 Win. all use the same .224 bullet. In Europe for example 6.5's come in a plethora of sizes, 6.5x40 Sauer(if you believe Donnelly and COTW I have brass but no original loaded ammo) bullet size of .250, 6.5x52R is .257, 6.5x47R & 58R is .260, 6.5x57 is .264 and the 6.5x52 Carcano is .268 and in many of the old cartridges there was no standardization of bore sizes and depending on the barrel maker groove diameters were quite different in the same cartridge.

Sharps, the 25-35 Win is the standard 30-30 necked to .257, the 6.5BRM is pretty much a 30-30 Ackley Improved necked to .264 loaded for strong single shot rifles.

Just a side note, the 25-35 Win, 25 Remington and 25-36 Marlin are nearly the same cartridge with the Rem being rimless and the Marlin with a slightly longer neck.

Outside of the 6.5BRM or the .22 Hornet or .220 Swift, are there many rimmed rifle cartridges in the US? And the European cartridges can be bought where?

[oskar]

The more common US ones found in local gunshops are, 7x30Waters, 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303British, 32 Winchester special, 375 Winchester, 444 Marlin, and 45-70.

In metrics. 6.5x57R, 7x57R, 7x65R,7.62x54R Russian, 8x57R, 9.3x72R and 9.3x74R. All can be found on line Most in S&B or Privi Partisan, hornady also loads some of them and I get most of mine at Graf and Sons or Buffalo Arms. There are quite a few more but finding them can be a lot harder.

There is also a 307 and 356 Winchester hat are rimmed versions of the 308 and 358 Winchester but are getting harder to find.

[Peter K]

I dream about owning a nice drilling for hunting Moose, Deer and Bear. I like the older hammer guns. There was one on a US auction that I think about all the time: It was a double rifle drilling of caliber 43 Mauser over 16 gauge with a scope. Too bad it wasn't listed as an antique as that would have cut a lot of red tape getting it into Canada. I downed last years Moose with a Styer-Mannlicher in 30/06. This year I'll take the Sauer 202 in 30/06. These modern guns are great but not as elegant as a nice scoped drilling would be.

I have a 71/84 Mauser that I pull out after the first Moose is in camp. I cast my own bullets and make the 43 Mauser cases out of 45/90 brass. The whole process of restoring an old gun, making ammunition for it and shooting it is very rewarding for me. So far I have taken a Bear and a coyote with the 43 Mauser. Neither took one step after they were hit with 400 grains of slow moving lead.

I enjoyed reading Mike Ford's article on 11mm ammunition. In that article he describes the basic process that I used to make the 43 Mauser cases. Thanks, Mike, that was a great read.

[sharps4590]

Peter, you're in the right place!!!

[MattieA65]

N9NWO, if I understood your question correctly, you are asking about 6.5mm cartridges for hunting in Europe. One of the first rifles I bought here in Germany after getting my Jagdschein was a Brno Model 21 in 6,5x67 Mauser, http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Know...se/6.5x57.html. I haven't shot anything with it yet, but it will group an inch at 100M with S&B factory ammo. This rifle is now a set-aside for when I get back to the US and my hand-loading equipment. I didn't realize that the case wall thickness of RWS, and presumably S&B brass, limited the powder capacity so much. I do like the cartridge, and intend to load 140gr bullets for it. From what little I know about 6.5s, it seems as if the throat lengths are as long for a 6.5x57 chamber as a 6.5x55 one, so loading long bullets would be the key to accuracy. Hopefully I can find a case brand with thinner walls.
Another 6.5mm cartridge is the 6.5x68, http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x68S.htm.

[mike ford]

MattieA65,
See my above comment about the rimmed version of the 6.5x57 ( I do load 140gr bullets though). It is a great caliber and the rimless version is a little faster.In my unsolicited opinion, it has enough powder capacity as it is. If you want 6.5x68 ballistics, you have a really nice one already.
Mike

[Greg47]

OK I'll chime in with my dos centavos. I'm a solid believer in efficiency and the classic calibers deliver there. In break open guns, I feel rimmed cartridges are better. My all around favorite is the 7x57R, but I also like the 8x57JR (&S) as gunmaker, I was still chambering custom rifles in this caliber (JS) when the gun rags were proclaiming it "obsolete" The 6,5 (X57) is a great caliber too, but I don't think quite as versatile. Most are very fast twist that like heavy (long) bullets. The newer non lead bullets can help with that; like the Barnes TSX. The fast twist favors bullet length, rather than weight as is commonly thought. The 120 grain TSX is as long as a 140 gr. conentional lead jacketed bullet. But caliber is never as important as bullet placement. Some folks get calibers that are too much for them and never shoot them well. I wrote a piece on hunting calibers on my site, from 45 years gunsmithing, hunting and writing. http://www.classicsportingguns.com/articles.html
Greg
Great thread by the way!

[mike ford]

Greg,
I agree with pretty much every thing you said, except where you indicated shorter bullets don't do well with a fast twist. For sure long bullets don't do well with a slow twist, but when people say bullets in their rifle are "overstabilized", due to a fast twist, I believe they are looking at the wrong thing. A rifle with a fast twist is likely throated for a long bullet, and loading a short bullet creates more freebore, which sometimes affects accuracy.In my opinion,a bullet can't be overstabilized, but can be understabilized(really, just not stabilized). Try loading the shorter bullets "out", even to the point that you think it may fall out(these are mostly single shots) and try them. Keep in mind that this is just one man's opinion, that most others disagree with.
Mike