Hunting calibers (prefer 6.5mm)

[N9NWO]

From my experience in Germany, .30-06 was popular. Perhaps the 8mm as well. Other than the 6.5x55 Swede, are there any other 6.5mm that have popularity in Germany?

The 6.5mm is gaining popularity here in the US. It gives, with a 140 gn. bullet, similar performances to the .308 or .30-06 calibers. And with far less recoil.

I am seeing rifles such as drillings now have a shotgun, a light caliber such as .22 Hornet or 5.6x50R and a heavy caliber such as .30-06 or even 7mm Mag. Would the .223 be too heavy for a light caliber or should one think more in line with the .17 HMR or such? For most large game (deer or boar) the 6.5mm cartridges should be enough.

Here we are seeing the .260 Rem, the 6.5x47 Laupa, the 6.5 Creedmoor do well as competition cartridges. Hunting is seeing many of these as well plus the 6.5x55 and the 6.5mm BRM (based on the .30-30 case). For many of the lighter German guns, the 6.5mm might do well.

The goal (based on the 6.5x55) is to push a 140 gn. bullet at 2550 fps. That seems to be idea. Any thoughts?

[sharps4590]

Interesting question N9N. If I were to have a drilling such as you describe built today, bear in mind I am hopelessly ensconced in the past, I believe it would a 16 bore X 22 Hornet X 8 X 57R, or 6.5 X 57R. The 6.5 will do everything I am ever likely to need but the 8mm is the older of the two so I might prefer it. Since this is speculation and cost is not an object it would probably also be a hammer drilling without scope bases.

As soon as the adjuster slides for my 22 LR insert arrive from Krieghoff I will have a T&S drilling in 9.3 X 75R Nimrod X 16 bore X 22LR. That is probably as close as I will ever get.

[N9NWO]

I really do love Blaser. Their rifles, with the Mannlicher actions and interchangeable calibers, is the ultimate in German hunting rifles. However traditional rifles, such the drilling, do hold a place for me. Blaser is now introducing the Bockdrilling BD 14 which is shotgun (20 ga) over a large caliber rifle with a small caliber rifle to the right side between the barrels. Very light gun with lite recoil. Thus using a 6.5mm (6.5x55 Swede but a more modern round like the 260 Rem would do) with a .223 on the side might make an interesting modern version of the traditional German hunting rifle.

http://www.blaser.de/index.php?id=18...c30ec376effc9e

[oskar]

For pure big game rig I can't see where I'd ever need anything other than my Sauer drilling 16x16x7x57. It is extremely accurate with 139 and 175 gr bullets and with a couple of Brenneke slugs it would be a formidable weapon for anything in the lower 48. Plus after the tags are full I can pop off the scope and spend some time grouse hunting.

The 6.5x 57, 6.5x55, 260 Rem, 6.5 RM and .264 WM all make great deer and elk cartridges.

My 16x16x6.5x58R Sauer is going to see some time calling coyotes in heavy cover this season.

The 5.6x50R in my opinion is too light for anything larger than coyotes but works very well for them and my 12x5.6x50R combo gun has been doing yeoman service on them for a few years.

[mike ford]

Here is an entirely unsolicited opinion from someone whose opinion is not especially respected. Avoid rifle calibers (in combination guns )that are rimless.They make extractors for rimless cartridges, but why?If you insist on two rifle calibers in the same gun, make sure the smaller of the two is adjustable( for poi at the muzzle),otherwise you would have to re regulate to change loads.Einstecklaufs are good solutions and are avaliable in a lot of very useful calibers.Traditional calibers are excellent and have been refined over many years. The 6.5x57R is an excellent cartridge in the same class as 6.5x55.If additional power is necessary,there is always the 6.5x65R.In 7mm, there is 7x57R and 7x65R.For larger calibers, it's hard to beat 8x57IRS and 9.3x74R. In 22cal, the 5.6x50R is world class,in my opinion.It was developed to duplicate 222Rem.Mag. performance in a rimmed case, to extract better in the newly developed Heym Mod 22S combination gun. It does this very well, and because of it and the 223, you hardly hear of the 222Mag any more. I load 60gr Nosler Partition bullets to top velocity and the 5.6x50R makes a pretty good Whitetail rifle(in Alabama).I have plenty other opinions, but due to recent surgery, I'm not able to sit at the computer very long.
Mike

[N9NWO]

Here is an entirely unsolicited opinion from someone whose opinion is not especially respected. Avoid rifle calibers (in combination guns )that are rimless.They make extractors for rimless cartridges, but why?If you insist on two rifle calibers in the same gun, make sure the smaller of the two is adjustable( for poi at the muzzle),otherwise you would have to re regulate to change loads.Einstecklaufs are good solutions and are avaliable in a lot of very useful calibers.Traditional calibers are excellent and have been refined over many years. The 6.5x57R is an excellent cartridge in the same class as 6.5x55.If additional power is necessary,there is always the 6.5x65R.In 7mm, there is 7x57R and 7x65R.For larger calibers, it's hard to beat 8x57IRS and 9.3x74R. In 22cal, the 5.6x50R is world class,in my opinion.It was developed to duplicate 222Rem.Mag. performance in a rimmed case, to extract better in the newly developed Heym Mod 22S combination gun. It does this very well, and because of it and the 223, you hardly hear of the 222Mag any more. I load 60gr Nosler Partition bullets to top velocity and the 5.6x50R makes a pretty good Whitetail rifle(in Alabama).I have plenty other opinions, but due to recent surgery, I'm not able to sit at the computer very long.
Mike

Hadn't thought of the extraction problem. Then the 6.5x52R (based on the .30-30 case) might do well.

[oskar]

6.5x52R/25-35 Win would be near bottom of acceptable deer cartridge, with only one bullet built for the low speed of this cartridge the 117 Horn. RN and the 100gr partition might work. I shoot the 100gr NPT at 250-3000 velocities and it works well. Whitetails where I hunt can run very large so I tend to leave the marginal rigs at home.

Large whitetail taken with the 25-204 Ruger that I built, 100gr NPT at 2800fps. I consider this as the bottom end whitetail round and it matches the 250-3000 ballistics

.

[N9NWO]

I hunt with a TC Encore in 6.5mm BRM (based on the .30-30). It has a 140 gn bullet that drives it at about 2500 fps. The Encore is very similar to many German hunting rifles in that it is single shot with interchangeable barrels. My state only allows rifle calibers in handguns and very select group of handgun rounds in rifles. The goal is to make you hunt within 100m. Plus we a single shot rifle, such as the Encore, you learn to do good shot placement thus one shot kills.

E.A. Brown is a huge fan of the 6.5mm http://eabco.com/6.5_mm_cartridges.html

[mike ford]

I thought the conversation was about having a new drilling made. Wildcats(I also play with them)will be difficult to have drillings built for.Proof rules are pretty strict and, I believe,to have something"non-CIP" proofed would require providing loading data, components(including properly marked brass),and expected pressures.The proof house would then have to calculate proof loads.We have it pretty good here, in that we can build pretty much what we want,but this is a lot different than German Guns.When you get into loading for old German guns, you will find enough variation to keep you satisfied.Many old German cartridges people consider underpowered were intended mainly for Reh(Roe) deer, but work pretty well for small Alabama Whitetail. If I killed one that I had to stand on a stepladder to skin(like oskar) I would do it on the Courthouse Square, so everyone could see it.
Mike

[oskar]

While a 6.5BRM based on a 30-30 case and a 6.5x52 seem very similar, they aren't very close in actuality. The 25-35 maxes out at 2200-2300fps with a 117gr bullet and your running a 140gr at 2500fps leaves the 25-35 just 1000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards and the 6.5BRM is still carrying that at 350 yards. With a generally accepted "Rule of Thumb" that it takes about 1000 foot pounds of energy for a cartridge to be effective on deer makes the 25-35 a 100yard and under gun and the 6.5BRM effective just about as far as one can shoot accurately from field position.

I grew up in a time and place where elevated stands, bait/food plots and salt blocks were illegal and considered tools of the poacher and very unethical. Tracking and still hunting are what I grew up with and still do, you don't always get a nice broadside shot but bullet placement is very important. I hunt large blocks of native forest with alder swamps, black spruce thickets and cedar groves, even a mortally wounded deer that can travel any distance can be hard to find. I find heavy for the caliber bullets will effectively take out the heart lung area from just about an angle and usually exit. Distances are short, rarely over 100yrds so most of the time my favorites are RN's, 6.5-160's, 7mm 175's, 30 cal. 180-220's, 35's-250's and 375Win-250's

I guess that if your hunting from a stand over a food plot or bait with a good rest for your rifle just about any cartridge will work, poachers have been doing for a long time with a spotlight and a 22 LR.

[oskar]

Mike we were typing at the same time. There is a great selection of "old" cartridges that would make a perfect hunting rigs today. the 6.5x57R, 7x57R or 7x65R, 9.3x74R would be perfect for a modern drilling. I have a combo gun in 222 Rem and it is a pain sometimes pulling the cartridge out from under the extractor and the extractor is less than an 1/8" wide. I'm seriously thinking of cutting it for the 222 Rimmed as the little rimless extractor tab is in a regular sized extractor.

Thought while cleaning up breakfast dishes.

If I were specing out a new drilling 20x20x7x65R.

Why 20ga, it can be built very slender and light, will handle any of the game birds due to the great selection of cartridges available. I have a nice little CZ Bobwhite that I bought for waterfowl out here on the saltwater marshes and estuaries and it works well on everything from snipe to geese with readily available nontoxics , Hevi Shot, Bismuth and Steel. In the uplands again it will handle everything from woodcock to wild pheasants with the appropriate ammo. The 16 is a great round but for availability of ammo the 20 wins hands down. The 12 in a drilling feels clubby to me and if built to handle steel and hevi shot I don't see how one could make it any better, the green movement is going to win so I'm going to prepare for it.

7x65R will be enough cartridge to handle 95% of big game around the world, with 139 and 140's shooting with a very flat trajectory for open country and 175's for close in and heavier work. Plus there is a great selection of non toxic bullets available.

Scope/scopes would be a pair, a 1x4 straight tube mounted low to barrel with a German #4 for fast handling close in work and sighted for the 175's and another scope in the 2.5-10 with a larger objective for plains game or low light hunting. Both in in a claw mount so they can e quickly changed without having to resight or to hunt birds.

pics in a minute

While not exactly as I spec'd, close.

16x16x7x57 with 1.5x scope mounted low.



Same with 6x48mm for open country.

[oskar]

Mike I tried to send you a get well message but your mail box is full so, I hope your up and around soon, I enjoy your posts.

[N9NWO]

While a 6.5BRM based on a 30-30 case and a 6.5x52 seem very similar, they aren't very close in actuality. The 25-35 maxes out at 2200-2300fps with a 117gr bullet and your running a 140gr at 2500fps leaves the 25-35 just 1000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards and the 6.5BRM is still carrying that at 350 yards. With a generally accepted "Rule of Thumb" that it takes about 1000 foot pounds of energy for a cartridge to be effective on deer makes the 25-35 a 100yard and under gun and the 6.5BRM effective just about as far as one can shoot accurately from field position.

I grew up in a time and place where elevated stands, bait/food plots and salt blocks were illegal and considered tools of the poacher and very unethical. Tracking and still hunting are what I grew up with and still do, you don't always get a nice broadside shot but bullet placement is very important. I hunt large blocks of native forest with alder swamps, black spruce thickets and cedar groves, even a mortally wounded deer that can travel any distance can be hard to find. I find heavy for the caliber bullets will effectively take out the heart lung area from just about an angle and usually exit. Distances are short, rarely over 100yrds so most of the time my favorites are RN's, 6.5-160's, 7mm 175's, 30 cal. 180-220's, 35's-250's and 375Win-250's

I guess that if your hunting from a stand over a food plot or bait with a good rest for your rifle just about any cartridge will work, poachers have been doing for a long time with a spotlight and a 22 LR.

Indiana is very strict about hunting near a salt block or bait/food plots. Now if you have food growing, such as apples or a field sown in clover, that is legal. Our biggest problem is that we can't not use long guns with rifle cartridges. They have to be a select range of pistol calibers (ie .358 Hoosier or the 460 S&W). Rifle calibers can be used in pistols during modern gun season (rifled shotgun, pistol or limited long guns). Thus most of us use the Encore. Again it is similar to hunting German style.

The question on the 6.5x52R (25-35) vs. the 6.5 BRM is whether a rifle for one would chamber the other? For single shot rifles like the Encore or a drilling, I can see using a rimmed cartridge. The 6.5 BRM gives me a rimmed cartridge that performs similar to the .260 Rem or the 6.5x55 SE using a 140 gn bullet. The one thing to remember is that given the 6.5mm BC (.600), it is going to perform similar to a 7mm with a 165 gn bullet or a 7.62mm with a 192 gn bullet.

[oskar]

The 6.5x52R uses a .257 bullet, the 6.5BRM uses a .264 bullet.

[mike ford]

Oskar,
Your 20/20/7x65R combination would be good, as would the 16/16/7X57R you showed. If I had to kill a deer, or the world would fall down, I would take my 16/16/8X57IRS. I never had my 16/16/6.5x57R fail me, it kills like a 257Roberts, but in a drilling.I don't get to use my old regulars nearly as much as I would like, because I'm so far behind on "blooding" other guns.In line now are 11.15x60R, 11.15x51R, 9.3x62, 10x42R,and the latest 8x57R/360. Also a couple tip ups that have been rechambered and I have to use "special" loading methods and are, consequently, not all that good.BTY, thanks for everyones concern about my health.I'm having the staples out Thurs.at the post op visit. It will be the end of July before I can stop wearing my brace.This is the second lumbar surgery for me and it seem to be taking longer to get my strength back-wonder if the extra age has any thing to do with it.
Mike