New Member. Help With Combination Over Under Shotgun Rifle

[BillK]

Good evening forum members. I am a new forum member. Some knowledable members from The DoubleGun forum suggested I joined here.
I finally took the plunge and I just acquired my first combination shotgun/rifle at an auction. I do not have the gun in my hands yet, however, I was hopping if you can help me identify its maker and the rifle caliber. Based on readings and postings at The DoubleGun, it appears the caliber is 8x57JR (.318). I presume the 16 gauge has 65mm chambers due to its pre WWI manufacture. Am I correct in my assumptions? This is the first gun of such type that I have purchased and I have zero experience in such matter. However, the gun style and its quality appealed to me and I would like to learn more about it and how to shoot it. The pics below are from the auction website. What can you tell me about its maker and its origins based on the style and proof marks? If it in fact turns out to be 8x57JR, is that a good hunting caliber for North American game? What kind of modern caliber does it compare to? What should be my first steps once I have it in my possession, other than have a well qualified gunsmith evaluate it? Can you recommed a gunsmith(s) who are experienced in that type of gun? What do you think of the scope base? It is not the common claw mount base I have seen in a lot of the drillings of that era? Would it be difficult to mount a scope on the gun? Thank you in advance for all your help. BillK
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[BillK]

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[BillK]

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[BillK]

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[Nathaniel Myers]

Hello! Welcome to the forum. What a fantastic arm! Horn butt plate, beautiful grade wood, small touches like the peep sight and cartridge trap. High quality no doubt. Careful research of the monogram based on the time period of the gun may yield some interesting information on who it was originally made for.

I am no expert, the real ones will be along shortly. Here is what I THINK.

Excelsior Witten is I believe a fluid steel marking.

Based on the proof I believe it would have been proofed at or prior to the 1912 change in proof law and markings.

I'm sure shortly you will get more extensive help. I keep looking at the action and something says Ferlach to me but I can't make the connection to what.

[Axel E]

I agree with Nathaniel: the gun was proofed and most likely made in Suhl in 1912, at the time the proofmarks were changed. The word "Nitro" in straight letters is Suhl, the 7.7 mm bore/land diameter marking 1912 on, the service load marking still pre-1912. The service load marking "StmG/1,7 g GBP" = steel jacketed bullet/ 26 gr Rifle flake powder (smokeless) rather points to the 8x57R 360 cartridge than the 8x57IR. The 8x57R 360 is a smaller cartridge of about .30-30 power, a 196 gr .318" bullet at 1900 fps.
"Excelsior" was a barrel steel grade by the Witten on Ruhr steel works. BTW, a major barrel steel customer of Witten from the 1870s on was Colt in Hartford, ordering besides ordinary blanks special order thick stock for cylinders.
The mark "w in G with cross on top" may be the one of Werner Gottgetreu, Suhl, master gunmaker, 1841 – 1919.
That scope mount bases on your combination are about the worst mount design I ever had the misfortune to work with. Such a mount was on my 20 / 7x72R Collath cape gun. As you see, I finally gave up and removed that contraption. Originality is fine, if it works. Here it did not work, so it had to go in the interest of function. There is a primary base soldered in, between the barrels on my gun. to this primary base a secondary tapered, visible one is fastened by 3 screws. There are two tiny screws at the front end, pressing against the sides of the barrel rib. Loosening the 3 hold down screws and agjusting the tiny ones allows for a wee bit of windage adjustment, but don't forget to fasten the hold down screws again. Onto this tapered base slides an equally tapered top trough that was soldered to the tube of a Voigtlaender 3x Skopar scope. With the "locking" lever back, this top slides on the base. Turning the lever forward should lock the top to the base. there is no clamping at all, just the tapered top on the base. Sounds like a qd mount, but it is not. After removing the scope, it needed at last 3 shots to settle down to a so-so "zero" again. But now the locking lever was free to wiggle back and forth. That did not matter much, as the scope was now so tight on that tapered base that it took several blows at the front end to make it slide back off the base again. Well, I may have treated it as a permanent mount, but you have to take it off the base to make any windage adjustment. Maybe the mount worked better when brand new, but a bit of use, recoil and resulting wear made mine completely useless.

[Axel E]

I finally lost temper and patience, removed the secondary base, cut out a bit more metal fore and aft from the rib (Dremel cutoff wheel and file) and epoxied in a 16 mm dovetail plate. This allowed me to mount an old Zeiss "Zielklein" with old EAW rings. All parts from my "junk pile". Now I can finally start serious load development.

[mike ford]

Billk,
First of all, Axel's experience with this scope mount is superior to mine, as I have none. I still believe, as I said on the double gun forum, that it will be easier to mount a scope in these mounts than if it had claw mounts. Axel's troubles were caused by the original scope/mount combination. You don't have this to deal with. Also, with careful fitting of the rings, the scope should have sufficient adjustment, as opposed to the one Axel was dealing with( the scopes of that age typically had no windage adjustment at all). You or your gunsmith should be able to fit a set of modern "clamp on" rings, similar to Ruger or Warne rings to the rifle. Mounting the front base against the projections at the front of the base should eliminate the need for the "recoil lug" projections on the bottom of Ruger Rings. Once you have the rifle and scope "in hand", you should lay the scope in the position it will have to occupy in order to have a useable eye relief. Then you will see if normal rings will work of if you will need "off set" rings. If, for some reason, you must have windage adjustment, you or your gunsmith can make an intermediate base from a Redfield or similar base, to clamp on the rail of your rifle, which would have sufficient adjustment built in. Because of additional work, this would be a little more expensive and would be higher. The tapered rail can likely be worked out in the rings/intermediate base. As I said on the Doublegun Forum, you should make a chamber cast, to determine the caliber. Like Axel I suspected it could be 8x57/360, but since the 7,7 could fit several cartridges, I didn't want to say which it is with out the chambercast. It will be a little harder for cases, but loading for it will be the same as for anything else.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Two thoughts come to mind, depending on how your bottom rail is fastened. If like Axel's then you would have a solid mount to fit some rings to. Alternatively making a new base for a set of Talley's would probably be my pick.

[kcordell]

Billk, nice gun!

Axel,

What epoxy did you use to secure your mount?

[BillK]

Good afternoon gentlemen. I just took possession of the gun. The rib is scribed with the following: "MILLER & GREISS, MUNCHEN". Do you know anything about those names?
I need to slug the barrel and cast the chamber once i receive the cerosafe I ordered. BillK

[Axel E]

Axel,
What epoxy did you use to secure your mount?

I used a German standard, a slow hardening, mixed in equal parts, glue named "UHU ™ Endfest 300", named so because of a strength of 300kg / cm², about 4260 pounds per square inch. Applied the mix to the cleaned metal surfaces, clamped the base in place and applied a heat gun to cure it to max strength. Some gunsmithes over here use the stuff instead of soft soldering when mounting scopes.

[Axel E]

"MILLER & GREISS, MUNCHEN". Do you know anything about those names?

In 1887 the Munich gunsmithes J.Miller and Georg, son of Valentin Greiss, formed the "Miller & Val. Greiss" company. From 1910 the company was owned by a Georg Steinbrenner, existed to the 1930s.
Addresses: Pfandhausstrasse 5, in 1927 Maximiliansplatz 14.
M&G were a "name" gunshop, "Gunmakers to the Royal Bavarian court". They propagated their special "Reifring" rifle bullets under Steinbrenner. Munich distributors for Mauser and Sauer & Sohn. Like all "name" gunshops, they also catered to the demands of "normal" hunters. As usual, they had most of "their" guns made to their house style by the Suhl guntrade, like your o/u combination.

[mike ford]

You can buy epoxy in most every Grocery, Dollar, Hardware, Auto Parts, or "big box" store in town. Please note that Axel specifically mentioned "slow hardening" epoxy. In most of the local stores, the most common products are those advertised as "instant", "5 minute", or "quick curing". These quick curing types might be ok for some household uses, but they give up essential strength for speed (might not be an advantage anyway if you have to "clamp it up") ;and strength is more important. Another of Axel's points should be especially heeded, the parts should be both mechanically and chemically cleaned. This means abrasives and strong solvents like acetone. Acetone wont damage the "bluing", but keep it away from stock finish or any plastic parts. If you can't find a quality epoxy locally, Brownells has it, or your local parts store will order it for you, and may have "next day" service w/o extra cost. Their salesmen will be more knowledgeable about the products anyway.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

I looked in the Greenhill dictionary and did not find anything for Miller & Greiss.

Look at purchasing some GREEN loctite. I can get you the specific number next I am in the shop. I have used it for years in several tool & die shops I have worked. You damn near have to machine the part off if you ever want it to come apart. Incredible stuff. Tolerance of fit is IMPERATIVE. (for any epoxy really)

Let me know if you want more info.