Mannlicher Identification

[Travis]

Thank you for the adding me to the group. I have enjoyed collecting WWII period mil surp. guns for a while now and just purchased a gun that I do not know much about. The gun was striking and seemed like it probably had a lot of history. I would appreciate any info that can be provided. At this point I am assuming it's a guild gun. I have been told it's an 88 receiver with a Mauser magazine or that it’s a 1903 receiver with a custom built magazine by the gunsmith. I do not know the caliber yet, but it appears to be a 9.3 or 9.5. The barrel length is 17.5 inches. I'm guessing the gunsmiths signature along with the town is on the magazine floor plate, but I have not had much luck finding any info on him except a couple of internet post mentioning him building drilling from 1901 to 1939. The name may be Franz Neuber of Wr Neustadt.

I have a couple of more questions regarding the originality of the gun. Is the front sling attachment original? I have been told its not, but it seems correct for the pictures I've seen online. How about the recoil pad? What would it take to return it to a period correct pad and where could I find one to match this gun? Then lastly, it appears to have possibly had a scope mount on the front receiver which can be seen in the pictures. would this have been period correct for this gun or could it just have had a peep sight on the rear.

Thank you in advance for any info that can be offered. I'm not sure if I got a fair deal, but I was just stunned by the uniqueness of the gun and the obvious craftsmanship. the Horn at the end of the barrel just topped it off. I would appreciate a general appraisel, but do not have any interest in parting ways with it. I enjoy following the post on the forums and look forward to expanding my collection. Unfortunately, I think my collecting interest just got more expensive.
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I'm having a difficult time getting all the pictures uploaded so I'll try to add more after this post.

[Travis]

More pictures
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[Travis]

More pictures

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[Travis]

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[sharps4590]

What an interesting rifle....but I am of no help.

[Nathaniel Myers]

Certianly a Mannlicher action but I can't tell which model based on your pictures. Not much to your other questions except perhaps, the holes in the rear of the action were likely a peep sight. I don't see any holes on the front of your action or otherwise on the side? Or any wood relieved for a mount.

The rear recoil pad would likely have been steel originally. Today I would replace it with either steel, or if I intended to shoot it regularly, a red recoil pad. I like the Pachmayr brand for most rifles I build.

I can tell you your barreled action was polished and hot salt blued likely in the states at some point. Most Americans for whatever reason like a high polish and many gunsmiths use a cloth wheel to achieve it. This rounds the corners and muddies the engraving.

[Travis]

It's a little difficult to tell, but there is a faint square outline on the top of the receiver that I suspect may indicate a soldered scope mount? I'm curious if this may be a correct assumption, and if so, would it have been period correct at the time of the build or done later? The reason I asked about the front sling attachment is a Cabela's gun library guy told me it was not correct to the gun. However, it looks correct to me based on pictures of similar guns and stocks. I asked him what would have been used and he just shrugged. This was suppose to be a guy who knew a lot. I left there thinking he was a hack. It may not be worth it, but I'm interested in restoring the gun to as original as possible if the gun deserves it, so to speak. Or would I be better off leaving as is and saving my money for something more collectable?
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[Axel E]

The gunshop Franz Neuber in wiener Neustadt existed about 1901 – 1939. Neuber , besides retailing guns made by others, also customized, restocked and had engraved bolt action rifles to his Austrian style: full stocked, cleaning rod under barrel, antler foreend cap. I have seen photos of such a Neuber carbine on an altered M93 Roumanian Mannlicher action, converted to a flush magazine too.
But here Neuber used another, Suhl made action. It is a rare Haenel Modell 1900 action. At the same time , 1900, when the Steyr factory added Schoenauer's drum magazine to Louis Schlegelmilch's basic M88 turning bolt breech action and created the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, the C.G. Haenel company decided to redesign their own M88 actions to make them competitve with the Mausers.
These Haenel rifles, like the Mannlicher – Schoenauers, are not converted M88 actions, but made by Haenel from scratch. The receiver started with a completely different forging. Haenel's foreman Carl Robert Wagner designed a unique staggered magazine , DRPatent 120862, US patent 667,856, GB patent 16348/1900. Other Haenel design features were protected by DRGMs only: Firing pin with separate tip DRGM Nr. 135092, gas flange on bolt # 135556, ejector # 157602.
Wrote about these Haenel actions, Modell 1900 and Modell 1909, in "Der Waffenschmied" Nr.33, Summer 2007. A copy should be available to members through the GGCA, see bookstore on this site.

Here is a photo of my own 8x57I M1900 on a boar rug it brought home:


A page from an early Haenel catalog, covering their M 1900. Your questions may be answered by the catalog pics:

[mike ford]

Travis,
Your rifle is a Haenel Mannlicher, I believe Mod 1900 or 1909(Axel will correct or verify this, or if not, when I have more time I will). Prior to WW1, Mauser still had patent protection on the Mauser action and others had the choice of buying an expensive action from them, or using a Mod 88 Commission action. Haenel made many rifles on the Mod 88 action, but it had several disadvantages compared to the Mauser. Shortly after the turn of the century, Haenel made several improvements to the Mod 88 in order to be more competitive with the Mauser. The most obvious is the flush magazine that doesn't require an "en block" clip. Mauser had the patent on the "W" type magazine spring that is almost universal today, so Haenel used a complicated system of levers and flat springs in theirs. One feature of the Mod 88 that had a lot of "press" as being unsafe is the removable bolt head, together with a one piece firing pin. I haven't heard of it happening, but the fear was the rifle could be fired with out the bolt head, causing an accident. Haenel changed the firing pin to a two piece unit, with one part attached to the bolt head. Without the bolt head, the rifle will not fire. Another obvious improvement is a flange on the shroud to divert any hot gasses traveling along the bolt ways. It is my considered opinion that your rifle was fitted with typical claw mounts, which were removed. This is evidenced by the marks on the receiver ring and the two holes at the bridge. The rifle likely had either a " sattle" soldered to the receiver ring for the foot plate, or the foot plate was dovetailed into it. The marks you see are either the result of cleaning the solder residuals when fitting the sattel or the fitting of a filler into a dovetail, to cover it up. The two holes at the bridge are to attach the typical offset Mannlicher mount. The front sling "swivel"(bow) is typical for the type rifle, but the rear swivel seems to have been relocated to a position fitting American tastes. I believe the original location was at the inlet plate ahead of it. Because of the polishing method, mentioned by Nathaniel , it would be difficult and expensive to put the rifle back into original condition ( and even then would be subject to differing opinions of "original). If it were mine I would use and enjoy it. You should make or have made a chamber cast and "slug" the barrel to ID the caliber. If you can post photos of the proof marks, under the barrel( since hidden, not likely polished off) we might be able to help further. I hope this has been helpful.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Fantastic posts Axel and Mike. Are these actions different in other ways than you pointed out Mike? How would I know one if I see one again in a sporter? Are they marked Haenel at all? The hinged floor plate and rather unique lever release is of course one way. The shroud is probably the most visible, probably an obvious "borrow" from Mauser.

Axel, thank you for posting the patents, I will also review those to better educate myself and see if I can muster a copy of your artical for my "reference library".

On a side note, love all the pictures (catalog) of the Haenels with octagon barrels. I have a Mannlicher Schönauer action that has been patiently waiting a barrel. I tend to love octagon barrels and thought I would cut one for this old classic. Sadly I don't see many MS's with octagons. These look great though!

Travis, if I may ask, where are you located?

[Travis]

Thank you Mr. Ford and Axel, for the very detailed responses. I am currently out of town but plan to have a gun smith determine the caliber soon and take the gun apart for further inspection. You have really given me a wealth of information and I will try to find the article referenced in the bookstore. Mr. Meyers, I am located north of OKC.

One more question please, since it's a Haenel 1900 action, does this help date the gun, and if so, what would the approximate year be? Pre wwI?

[Axel E]

One more question please, since it's a Haenel 1900 action, does this help date the gun, and if so, what would the approximate year be? Pre wwI?

Pre-WW1 of course, as the Great War ended prroduction of the Haenel actions. We can narrow it down even more: From 1909 on the Haenel Modell 1900 was replaced by the improved Modell 1909, a more streamlined action, but retaining the unique box magazine, the bolthead – mounted firing pin tip and the gas flange. The M1909 had a streamlined receiver bridge, a bolt guide rib in front of the handle and a neater, one piece ejector/bolt stop. The 1909 magazine was opened by a push button on the left side, in front of the trigger guard.

The photos show
on top: my M1900 high grade, double set trigger, half – octagonal ribbed barrel,figured wood
bottom: my 9x57 M1909 economy grade, single trigger, round barrel

[Axel E]

Quote: Are they marked Haenel at all?

Only a few, made for export, are. Most are merely marked with the address of the retailer, as is my M1900: barrel rib "J.Sackreuter, Frankfurt a.M.", floorplate "Haenel's Patent", bolt head, bolt stop, gas flange "DRGM", tiny round stamp with a hen, surrounded by the letters "CGH" under barrel.
My M1909 is not marked at all as to maker.
You have to look for the gas flange and the flush, staggered magazine with the unique leverwork follower.

Quote: How would I know one if I see one again in a sporter?
You will not encounter such Haenels very often. My late friend Lud Olson ("Mauser Bolt Rifles") called them "rarer than hen's teeth". He had encountered only three in all his life and was not aware of the two different models.

[Travis]

You're comment that their as rare as a hens teeth begs the question. How would I appraise the value of the gun?

[Nathaniel Myers]

Axel,

Thank you for the additional photo's and explanation. I may never see one, but if I do, and if I remember, I will be educated somewhat about them. As a machinist and toolmaker I am just astounded by ingenuity and ability of these men. Especially facing strict patent enforcement. It seems much of my interest is merely how they initially made it work and how they made it better.

Travis, now that we know your rifle is rare as hens teeth my offer may not be of interest. My offer was to have you ship me the rifle and I would take the rifle apart, chamber cast, gauge bore, and inspect for prof marks and photograph. I would be pleased to do all this for a nominal fee just so I can look one over and photograph it closely.