Erfurt? Kar Sporter

[Nathaniel Myers]

A customer brought this to me asking abouts it's history and what I knew about it. I know a little, but thought I would defer to the experts.

The rifle appears to me to have been built on a Kar 98 small ring action post WWI in Germany. The barrel, which last 2 numbers (12) match the numbers on the rest of the rifle would date it to 1904 if it is or was an Erfurt.
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What seems strange to me is the lack of proof marks after being made into a sporting rifle. I read mention of such a subject in another thread and it was mentioned post WW1 there was a period where no proof houses were up and running. Perhaps this is the case with this rifle?

Lastly I believe that the gentleman bought a wall hanger. I just cannot justify this being safe. Please offer me other evidence if possible.
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[Axel E]

Yes, it is a sporterized Kar 98 AZ carbine (called 98 a from the 1920s only), retaining the original military barrel. These WW1 carbines had slim, tapered barrels, not stepped ones like the Gew98 or the later K 98k.The serial number alone does not allow to date it. The then German miltary numbering system identified a gun this way:
1.) factory. Though Erfurt arsenal made most, Kar 98AZ were also made by Danzig, Spandau and Amberg.
2.) year of production. Both maker and year were marked on top of the receiver ring. These carbines were adopted for service in 1908. So possible production years are 1908 – 1918, 11 years.
3.) Serial number. Each factory started again with number one each new year. If production numbers of a factory and a given year exceeded 9999, the numbers restarted with 1 again. To identify the series, another number or letters were added. So this carbine was number 412 of the "Z", 28th series of an unknown factory, likely Erfurt, of one of the 10 years the carbines were made.
So the gun was made sometime during WW1, 1914 to 18, most likely 1917 or 18, when most of the "carbines" were made.
The rifle was sporterized post-WW1 by some "gunsmith", who cut the dovetail for the mount base too deep. Such cut up actions are regarded unsafe today, though they may have fired many European full power factory loads over the years.

[mike ford]

While if the receiver is not pierced, it may pass "view" proof, if they find it pierced, it will not pass. Sometimes, if the cut is filled and engraved or otherwise hidden; or if a new base is soldered over it, it may escape discovery, but if discovered the work would be lost.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, the last photo above shows the receiver ring being cut through into the locking lug recess and the barrel threads. This is even more damage than I've seen before. I would not trust this receiver any more, even with the weak American 8mm Mauser loads.

[Dan Patch]

The z sequence in serial numbering was reached only by Erfurt and only in the years 1915-18. At some point in 1918 the recoil lug on the underside of the receiver was squared off like the standard 98 recoil lug; whether that modification occurred before or after the z series was reached I don't know. Best bet is an Erfurt 1916 or '17. Dan

[Nathaniel Myers]

The owner is a welder by trade and asked me about making a filler block then welding the seam. I do quite a bit of TIG welding on Mauser actions fixing pitting and other issues. This seemed like a reasonable fix as the lug seat is intact.

Any opinions on this? or should he make it a wall hanger?

He thanks you all for the information. I had found an article online discussing these but either they don't have their facts straight or I read it wrong! So I also appreciate the corrected information.

[mike ford]

Axel,
The last photo shows one that would not pass the "View" proof( even if it held a proof load).If it were filled to fool the proof house, it still has been weakened to the point that it should not be used for any large/medium game cartridge. A good use for such an action is as a jig/fixture to hold barrels during draw filing, polishing, rust bluing, etc. In the interest of full disclosure, I have filled a couple such actions for a friend that builds rifles for others. I only did this for large ring actions, that had not been pierced. Even then, only with the full assurance from my friend, that he would only barrel them for low pressure cartridges( I even loaned him my 300 Savage reamer for one of them).
Nathaniel,
See the above. If the customer insists on using this action, maybe he will accept cutting the old receiver ring off and welding a different one to the rear. Unless you have some receiver rings from law enforcement destroyed rifles, it would be much better to use a complete different receiver, with the customers other parts installed on it. If he has some particular attachment to it( such as his grandfather bringing it back from the war), he can still keep the old receiver ,labeled as to it's history, near the rifle.
Mike

[Spguns]

The dovetail Cut in the reciever (Hülsenkopf) no more proofed in Germany. Older guns are not more became a new proofstamping in germany. The dovetail cut was a standart method to mounting scopes in germany in older times . But is a weak point the Hülsenkopf. Below the cut are the area to rest one of the boltlugs.

[Nathaniel Myers]

A blast from the past. . . I'll have to see if I can find that action today. It was the guinnea pig for a few things. . .