German (?) Stalking Rifle Identification, proof marks and help

[Freedom First]

I have what I believe is a German Stalking Rifle. (single shot brake action, double set triggers)
There is no cartridge identification.
On the left side of the 20-1/2"octagon barrel inscribed is "Arendsee"
On the right side "A. AHL"
Underside of the barrel has 3 proof marks: B G & U each with a crown above it.
Followed by 7.7mm then 2.13 finally 730
I have a chamber cast and it is EXTREMELY close to the .32 Winchester Special cartridge.
Before anyone gets excited.... I know the bore 7.7mm is .312-.313 diameter and the .32 Win. Spec. is .321 diameter.
I will soon find out, I believe a .32 Win casing would chamber.
I am lead to believe the lack of a "N" proof mark indicates this is not for use with smokeless powders????
Any information from manufacturer, proof marks, specific cartridge identification and the explanation of the "2.13 & 730"
or anything anyone can tell me about this rifle would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks in advance,
Paul

[John]

Compare the chamber cast to the dimensions of the 8 x 57 JR or JRS. It may be one of them...

The gun was proofed in February of 1913 (ledger number 730).

I bet the marking on the right side of the barrel may be the type of barrel steel (the word Stahl is part of what you're seeing).

Post some pictures !

[Freedom First]

German Stalking rifle, proof marks, information and help please

I have what I believe is a German Stalking Rifle. (single shot brake action, double set triggers)
There is no cartridge identification.
On the left side of the 20-1/2"octagon barrel inscribed is "Arendsee"
On the right side "A. AHL"
Underside of the barrel has 3 proof marks: B G & U each with a crown above it.
Followed by 7.7mm then 2.13 finally 730
I have a chamber cast and it is EXTREMELY close to the .32 Winchester Special cartridge.
Before anyone gets excited.... I know the bore 7.7mm is .312-.313 diameter and the .32 Win. Spec. is .321 diameter.
I will soon find out, I believe a .32 Win casing would chamber.
I am lead to believe the lack of a "N" proof mark indicates this is not for use with smokeless powders????
Any information from manufacturer, proof marks, specific cartridge identification and the explanation of the "2.13 & 730"
or anything anyone can tell me about this rifle would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks in advance,
Paul

Since my original post, I got some .32 Win. Spec. cases. With a little effort the case WILL chamber HOORAA! Hence I firmly believe it will fire form nicely.
To that end, anyone have any thoughts using Trail Boss powder???
I have a request in to IMR for their thoughts on use of Trail Boss in this application.

[Axel E]

Andreas Ahl had a gun- and bicycle shop in Arendsee, Altmark, northern Germany, before WW1 at least. He retailed your rifle. It was made in Zella -Mehlis and proofed February 1913, number 730 of that month. 7.7 mm = .303" - .307" is not the bullet or groove diameter nor part of the cartridge designation, but the land or narrowest diameter of the barrel. I suspect your rifle was originally chambered for the 8.15x46R cartridge. A "7.7" land diameter is completely correct dor this cartridge, the standard German target number up to WW2, usually with deep grooves for lead bullets. But you better do a chamber cast, as many German 8.15x46R rifles were rechambered in the USA to take the .32 Win Sp. Here in Germany, .320 .32 Win bullets are often used in 8.15x46R reloading. Photos would be helpful to further identify the type of your rifle.

[Freedom First]

John,
Thanks for your reply.
8x57JRS is close but .32 Win. Spec. is a lot closer.
I will get some pictures up, it is a real battle for me.
I don't see Stal anywhere????

[Freedom First]

Axel E
Thanks for the response. As I said I do have a chamber casting.
I have relatively easily pushed a .312 diameter lead bullet from chamber all the way through the muzzle. The rifling barely scored the lead. I am going to try to make a couple of lead slugs .314 & .316 and then hopefully be able to measure them.

[Nathaniel Myers]

Do you have any friends who are muzzle loaders? Ask if one of them has a squirrel rifle in .32. The lead ball should be soft enough to easily slug the bore. Then you'll know your land and groove measurement.

[sharps4590]

A round ball for a 32 usually measures .310. Get a .350 RB, it should work better. Several use egg shaped fishing sinkers of a close size and evidently that works quite well also.

[mike ford]

Freedom First.
If you have or know someone that has some 00 buckshot shells, you can cut one open and use one of the shot to slug the barrel. If you flatten it out a bit before you start, you will be able to get a better reading. If your chamber cast is long enough, you may be able to measure the groove diameter from it. Axel's concern about rechambering from 8.15x46R is very valid. I have one that was improperly done and it sustained a lot of damage because of it. Even if properly chambered, there is a concern for the difference in pressure limits and possibly bullet diameters. In addition to the 8.15x46R, rifles like this were available in 8x57R/360. This cartridge has dimensions similar to the 32 Win. Spec., except for length. If your chambercast shows a case length of about 2.250", it could be the 8x57R/360; if it shows a case length of around 2.030", it is possibly a 32 Win. Spec. chamber. If it does have a 32 Win. Spec. chamber, just hand load to 8.15x46R pressures, using bullets appropriate for the barrel.
Axel,
Thanks for the info about Andreas Ahl, I happen to have a BF with the same markings.
Mike

[Freedom First]

Freedom First.
If you have or know someone that has some 00 buckshot shells, you can cut one open and use one of the shot to slug the barrel. If you flatten it out a bit before you start, you will be able to get a better reading. If your chamber cast is long enough, you may be able to measure the groove diameter from it. Axel's concern about rechambering from 8.15x46R is very valid. I have one that was improperly done and it sustained a lot of damage because of it. Even if properly chambered, there is a concern for the difference in pressure limits and possibly bullet diameters. In addition to the 8.15x46R, rifles like this were available in 8x57R/360. This cartridge has dimensions similar to the 32 Win. Spec., except for length. If your chambercast shows a case length of about 2.250", it could be the 8x57R/360; if it shows a case length of around 2.030", it is possibly a 32 Win. Spec. chamber. If it does have a 32 Win. Spec. chamber, just hand load to 8.15x46R pressures, using bullets appropriate for the barrel.
Axel,
Thanks for the info about Andreas Ahl, I happen to have a BF with the same markings.
Mike

Thanks to ALL for your response!
I have made a slug and managed to get it through the barrel. It measures .312 in the grooves and .318-.319 lands. I hope I have the terminology right?
I did try another .32 Win. Spec. case, It chambers nicely! The 1st case I tried had a small bulge at the mouth.
Thanks again, keep it coming,
Paul

[Diz]

Freedom First,

I would caution you about mixing these up and the need for a very careful chamber cast that includes the rim area. The 32 Win has the shoulder at 1.554" from the base while the 8x57R 360 shoulder is 1.890" from the base. The other dimensions are close enough that the 32 Win might go in but being stopped by the rim it would have an excess of shoulder space. Plus and I am no expert on this the .318" bore you report I believe is an old JRS bore size. I would either try to make another cast and pick off the shoulder positions or get a dummy 8x57R and try it first. Others with more knowledge could confirm or deny this possibility.

Thanks, Diz

[Nathaniel Myers]

You may be able to use .318 bullets once you verify the case

I will have to double check, but I swore I had some .320 lead balls. My grandfather and great uncle used to shoot a form of schuetzen (sp) for muzzle loaders, maybe it was a custom they made.