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Hello and thank you for the greetings. As said in my original post, I have a German made 16 gauge SxS that I need help with identifying. It has no name and very little markings. This is my first German made shot gun and I hope someone can help me with it. Im posting some pictures for your view, thanks. Guy
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This is every marking on the shotgun. If anyone needs pics of anything else, let me know. Thank you, GuyComment
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I'm surprised the barrel flats do not bear the "Crown S" proof for smoothbore barrels.
What is the symbol above the "Crown U" on each barrel flat ? I don't recognize it as a typical proof mark.Comment
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John, I believe that's the choke proof. The smoothbore proof is on the barrels.Comment
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The choke proof is the "Crown W". Granted, there is a "Crown S" proof on the barrels, but that's done first (when the gun is assembled but not "finished", I believe).
Then, when complete, they'll prove it again, and that's when the proof marks are put on the barrel flats. (All of my guns have the S, W, and U stamps on the barrel flats.)
I'm sure Axel or others could clarify this, with much more factual knowledge than I possess.
Either way, it looks like a nice gun !Comment
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Thanks John, I know very little on this subject and am wanting to learn as much as I can. I hope the members here can help me understand more about my shotgun.
Thanks, GuyComment
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I also wonder about the mark above the Crown U ( view proof), as well as the cross and the dot next to the view proof on the left barrel.
MikeComment
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Mike and john, are you both talking about the imperial eagle above the crown U ? At least that's what I thought it was. I also want to know what that + and a punch mark means and the large K on the barrel. GuyComment
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Crown W = Wuergebohrung or choked bore rather than an open one.
Crown U = Untersuchung an inspection mark.
Crown S = Schrot meaning a shot barrel, not a rifled one.
The "R" on the barrel hook is likely a suppliers' mark.
You might find a few more marks inside the action, when it's stripped for cleaning. But the main ones are in your photos. I presume there's no name on the rib?Comment
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The word "Nitro" in straight letters shows the gun being proofed post-1912 by the Suhl proofhouse. So it was made in Suhl. I have seen that "crippled imperial eagle" among Suhl proofmarks of the early 1920s before. About 1923 Suhl started marking proof dates and, for a short time, ledger numbers like Zella-Mehlis. So your gun was likely Suhl made 1919 – 1922.
The gun has conventional Anson boxlocks with bottom hinged sears, not Ernst Kerner's (watch the first name!) improved boxlocks with top hinged sears.
Single K marks were used in Suhl by both Emil Klett, Gothaer Strasse 122b, Suhl, and by Emil (!) Kerner & Sohn (Franz K.), Truebenbachstr. 3-5, Suhl. As both were active in the early 1920s, it's your choice.
I don't know the meaning of the X and dot. Maybe a maker's memory mark to keep several very simlar guns, destined for different customers, sorted?Comment
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I didn't even recognize that as the "crippled eagle." (My bad...)
The Crippled eagle marks on my guns really look different than these. (The "feathers" look similar, but the part above that - the body - looks much "fuller" on my guns. Not relevant, but it looked different enough for me to not recognize it !)
Was I correct in thinking that the barrel flats should bear a Crown S ? (Again, all of my guns do...)Comment
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Thank you Axel for your opinion and evaluation of my shotgun. Do you think the serial number reflects the date of the gun ? I have read some threads on this site that seem to show it sometimes. The serial number is in one of the pictures I posted. Thank you again, GuyComment
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The eagle marks on my guns really look different than these.
That’s why I call this simplified postWW1 "eagle" stamp "crippled".
Was I correct in thinking that the barrel flats should bear a Crown S ?
Most often the crown/S I found on the barrel flats, but sometimes, like here , elsewhere on the barrels. The proofhouse inspectors then where rather free where they applied the different marks "on the barrel". In fact, when a crown/W mark is on the flats, the crown/S is rather superfluous, as this choke bore marking itself indicated "shotgun". F.i. the post-1912 crown/N mark for smokeless proof is often found not besides the other proofmarks, but besides the service load info.
Do you think the serial number reflects the date of the gun ?
No! Definitely NOT! German law only required that each gun had to have a serial number the maker was able to identify from his files. Every gunmaker was free to what numbering system he used or where he started his numbers, not necessarily with"1". Some examples: Sauer & Sohn numbered all their guns cosecutively, regardless of type or model. But they assigned the numbers at the "start" of a gun, not on completion or sale. So a certain serial number may have been still sitting in stock at the factory while guns with higher numbers were already proofed, finished and sold. O.Will of Zella – Mehlis assigned actions already numbered in lots to his outworking action filers. Here too a gun with a lower serial number was documented as being sold later than one with the higher one. All the famous bolt action rifles signed by Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, were serial numbered by Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, who actually made the rifles for Brenneke. So, unless you luck into the lost files of the individual makers, serial numbers are useless not only for dating, but for estimating production figures of models too.Comment
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Thank you again Axel. Im guessing that this shotgun is a good start to my collection. Is it rare to have one with the crippled eagles stamped on it ? I only ask because I really don't know.
Kiwi bloke, when I do take the gun apart, I will look for other markings. Thanks, GuyComment
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