Help identifying my 16 gauge SxS

[Axel E]

Not really rare, but found mostly on immediate post-WW1 guns only. Just a warning: Don't equate "rare" and "valuable"! Very rare guns often go at very low prices. When nobody knows what it is there is no demand. A shotgun collecting friend has some breechloading guns like the Pauly or Chateauvillard. Those are rarer than Colt Patersons or Walkers, slightly older, technically even more important, but he got them cheap, as there is little knowledge and little demand for them. Everyone thinks he knows something about Commercial Mausers and wants them. But who has ever heard about a Schmidt & Habermann model 21, a short Mauser type action, made in small numbers during the 1920s. While K Mausers usually go for over $ 1000.-, I bought two S&H M21 during the past 3 years, complete with contemporary claw-mounted Zeiss scopes. I merely paid Euro 135.- and 175.- for each.

When disassembling your gun, take a look at the breech face. Some of the Suhl gunmakers applied their mark there.

[Guy j]

Axel, I understand. I was just wondering for collectability for my German shotgun. Value is only for how much one is willing to pay for it.

[mike ford]

Axel,
What does the "crippled imperial eagle" designate? Is it just an early, pre "pick and trough" Suhl house mark; or does it mean something else. Would it still be an "imperial" eagle after the World War, or was there some time before the "Weimar Republic" ?
Mike

[Guy j]

Great question Mike. I wonder if that's how the country felt right after the war and it reflected in the eagle proof mark.

[Axel E]

I called this distorted eagle stamp "crippled". After the "Novemberrevolution" on November 9, 1918, there was no justification for the imperial crown above the eagle any more. Some proofhouses, as well as the government arsenals, simply ground off the crown from their stamps and continued to use them. But the then "red" Suhl, ruled by left-wing socialists and early communists, had this new stamp made, hardly recognizable as the eagle prescribed by proof law for the first proof any more. The head and body is reduced to a gate-like figure above an o, the wings indicated by a wreath of lines only. After a short time Suhl again scrapped this stamp and used a recognisable eagle stamp again.

[Guy j]

shotgun 12.jpg

Thank you axel for the explanation on the crippled eagle. I found another mark on the barrel. It my be a random marking between makers like Axel talked about or not, I don't know.

[algmule]

Guy,
That´s Ehrhardt/Rheinmetall I believe. Steel, and if I remember correctly also manufacturer of weapons.

Axel,
Interesting.

This distorted/"crippled" eagle is similar to later eagles http://www.hallowellco.com/proof_mar..._countries.htm (scroll down) only its wings are wider apart and not so completed.

Also, seems to me that the birds on the tubes are different. Could be wrong, though. My eyes are not what they used to be and with the eagles being on the tubes it´s hard to say. And no, I´m not suggesting anything, I´m as eager to see new things as any of us. If different, I wonder which came first on this particular weapon?

Another also, was the facility in Suhl ever non-active right after WW1? I´ve seen it suggested it was. Believed it too.

Yet another also, as it recently came up in a discussion (elsewhere) I would very much appreciate images of differing arsenal eagles, and also wish to learn more about them. This grinding-off crowns sounds really interesting.

Realize this is gravely off-topic, but anyone willing to share info on a Wilhelm Meyer, Nürnberg, is welcome to contact me. Retailer and exporter to my knowledge.

If the link does not work it´s just cause I´m forever on the warpath as regards computers. Or it may actually be the other way around!

Kind regards
Peter

[Guy j]

Peter, thank you for identifying that mark. I had to get the light just right to see it. thanks, Guy

[mike ford]

Axel,
Was the "crippled eagle" only used in (red) Suhl, or was it used in other proof houses as well. This seems to be an interesting period, that little is known about(in US, at least).
Mike

[Guy j]

Hello all, I hope this isn't the end of the discussion on this weapon. It seems to me there is a lot of German history related to the time this shotgun was made. I've learned quite a lot already and hope it continues. Thanks, Guy