Sauer 8x60 Mauser stamping help

[sharps4590]

If the bore slugs .323 yes, they would work. For that money I'd go to Dave at CH-4D and get equal quality for a lot less money. Dave will also have the correct dies if it slugs .318. I have several sets of Dave's dies and they take a back seat to none.

http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/caliber-list?page=16

[xarcher]

Thanks for the lead Vic

[mike ford]

Axel's insistence on moving the shoulder of 30-06 cases forward is very important.The method he cited is one of several methods, and is the most often used.The disadvantage of this method, using common expander buttons,is that the necks very often come out uneven,sometimes very much so.To trim the already short necks enough to sguare them up, makes them even shorter.In my experience,fireforming to neck the cases up, results is the necks being a lot more square. This is usually done with a filler, but no bullet.Since the headspace is excessive, you should use a special procedure.The extractor in a mauser is very robust and will usually hold the case against the boltface pretty well(this is likely why the 8x60 ammo even fired).You should remove the bolt,place the fireforming load under the extractor and replace the bolt. Hold the rifle vertical and fire it.This is to insure the rim is under the extractor.Feeding from the magazine will also do this, but a case with no bullet doesn't feed well.You may find it convienent to remove the boltstop/ejector during the fireforming. There are many different fireforming loads that work, the one I use is a small charge of fast burning powder,a 1/4 sheet toilet paper tamped over the powder,the case filled with grits,corn meal,or worn out polishing media(in some places cream of wheat is used).The neck is stopped up with more toiletpaper,etc.I usually use something like Bullseye or Unique. I guess at the amount of powder and load one case and try it. If it fills the case out, I load the rest; if not I adjust the powder and try again. In this case,if you use fired 06 cases, don't resize them. If they chamber hard, so much the better.If you have access to 8mm/32cal cast bullets, you can use them to fireform the cases, by loading them long enough to engage the rifling. Sometimes it is necessary to load them backward to hit the rifling.Of course a "midrange"load is used in this case. Using jacketed bullets for this is not only a waste, but can result in higher pressure than desired.These are only suggestions, it is your rifle, you should decide for yourself what you will do. Good luck.
Mike

[Diz]

One small point to add. You may want to lube the case very lightly with case sizing lube before you fire form. This keeps the case from sticking in the chamber when the firing pin drives it forward and stretching the head. You are essentially resizing the case and pressures can still be considerable even without a bullet. I get the best results this way. CH4D does make a nice die for a lot less and usually has even the odd ones on the shelf. Good luck, Diz

[xarcher]

So to me it would be better to follow Nonte's procedure with an 06 case that has already been fire formed in an 06 chamber? That way the fire formed neck would be a few thou closer to the 323 bullet and the head space would be less than a virgin or FL sized 06 case??? Or is that implied in the procedure that Axel has laid out?

[mike ford]

No, in Axel's(Nonte's) procedure,the 30-06 case(either fired or unfired)would be necked up to 358"(or .338"),and then necked back down to 8mm, in stages, to find the location that a "false shoulder"formed this way "headspaces" the case correctly.My mention of using fired cases was under the method where there was no false shoulder,and other interferences were used to hold the case.It may even be that 06 shoulder diameter is larger than the shoulder diameter in the chamber. In this case you could just partially size the case so it has to be forced into the chamber by the bolt. This would fit the fireformed case's headspace to the rifle's.Dimensions vary so that we can only say what might work, it is up to the owner to figure out what will work; with the actual rifle and cases "in hand". Good luck.
Mike

[Diz]

Xarcher, I understand you are in PA somewhere. Please PM me and if you are close I would be happy to help with the reforming. Thanks, Diz

[Nathaniel Myers]

image.jpg

If I have time I will post a picture this morning of an example of what is being referred to. Seeing pictures might help. Personally I have to drive about 45 minutes to where I shoot, so I have always avoided fire forming with media as Mike described.

Mike is very much correct about necking up and necking down, in that you will get uneven necks, sometimes drastically so. Fortunately 30-06 cases are cheap and plentiful, so mistakes will not be costly other than time involved. You can see in the picture an unmolested 22 Hornet case. To the right a case that has been necked up to 6mm and then necked down to 22. Finally the fire formed case being 22 Hornet. Now when I fire form, I use a really light load and whatever I have laying around. So in the instance of the 22 K Hornet I load some 55gr FMJ bullets because I have a boat load of them and they were cheap.

I will have to dig around but I believe I have some 8mm pulls that I would sell for a near charitable price.

[xarcher]

Xarcher, I understand you are in PA somewhere. Please PM me and if you are close I would be happy to help with the reforming. Thanks, Diz

Diz, just sent a PM.

[Diz]

Xarcher,

I was poking around and Huntington's has Bertram 8x64 Brenneke brass in stock. It's $60 per box of 20. I have always gotten very good service from them as well. Nice guys.

Also, got your PM and sent my cell#. Call any time.

Thanks, Diz

[xarcher]

So first of all, thanks again to all of you who have helped me sort through my issues. I was directed to this forum by someone else, with the guarantee that you guys would be helpful. Well you have exceeded my expectations. Thanks again.

Moving forward, I am leaning towards coughing up the $60 for the 8x64 brass, buying a set of dies and some 8mm bullets and working up loads that way. Although I have a few hundred pieces of 06 brass on the shelf, I would prefer to have the proper head stamp to keep things simple. Will be slugging and casting first as suggested.

In the mean time, if any of you can direct me to a gun smith who can make me a set of claw mounts, that would be appreciated. Just the next step in the process.

You all take care and thanks again.

Jeff

[Nathaniel Myers]

My first recommendation would be Duane Wiebe. I can make you a set of rings, but Duane is 100 times more capable. He may suggest a whole new set of mounts and rings.

As mentioned above, NECG will fit you a NEW set of claw mounts and rings, but I do not believe they will make a set of rings to match the existing mounts.

If none of the above pan out, feel free to send me an email.

[mike ford]

Clawmounts are no longer dovetailed into the reciever ring any longer, and in Germany, the dovetail would be filled and stippled to hide it. The front mount would be in a saddle on the barrel,ahead of the reciever ring. The rear base would be replaced to match the rest of the parts( likely Recknagle). To use the bases on the rifle now, someone here would have to make the rings,as mentioned by Nathaniel.Ernst Apel Wuerzburg (EAW) has a system to convert mounts like yours to "swing mounts". It also solves problems with which scope to use.
Mike

[xarcher]

So after setting this gun aside for the last 10 years, here's where I am.

I had the gun slugged 10 years ago to confirm the stampings and have purchased 8x64S brass and reloading dies. Also purchased a box of Barnes triple shock 8mm bullets. My goal is work up some handloads and use the gun to fill a tag later this year. In addition to the load data from Axel in post Articles above, if anybody has other options I'd appreciate it. I currently have a good supply of H4350 and was going to keep it under 55gr based based on Axel's data and some other data I've come across. Alternately I could purchase some H414 but haven't found any locally yet.
Thanks

[mike ford]

Xarcher,
Good luck with your project. My only comment has to do with bullets you intend to use. Are they monolithic copper? As reported previously by Axel; Shortly after WW1 Mauser chambered .318- .320" barrels (the Versailles Treaty prohibited .323" new barrels) with reamers that cut necks large enough for .323" bullets because they found that the larger bullets did not unduly raise pressure if the bullet was moving when it engaged the rifling. However, this was with "cup and core" bullets not Monolithic bullets, so be careful to ensure the groove diameter is at least .323".
Mike