Unknown Merkel

[Slatz1nick]

Hi,

I am a new member trying to find out some info about 2 guns I recently acquired. I thought I was fairly knowledgeable about guns but these 2 are definitely outside my knowledge base and I can't seem to find much out there regarding WWII Merkels. Here are some pictures and info about the Merkel:

-I believe it is a model 243
-It is 12 ga
-The serial of 27527 is blank concerning the purchaser's info at Merkel. Every serial number around it is logged with buyer's info except this model.
-Previous owner thought maybe a German higher up had commissioned it due to the lack of buyer info
-Has been restocked
-The unique engraving is most likely custom

Merkel7.jpgMerkel1.jpgMerkel2.jpgMerkel3.jpgMerkel4.jpg


Thank you for your help!

[Axel E]

Quote: -The serial of 27527 is blank concerning the purchaser's info at Merkel. Every serial number around it is logged with buyer's info except this model.
-Previous owner thought maybe a German higher up had commissioned it due to the lack of buyer info

IMHO it was engraved this way as an example for a "new" engraving design, or showpiece. Remained at the Gebr. Merkel factory until "liberated" when the US Forces, 3rd US Army, occupied Suhl on April 3, 1945. As there never was a buyer, there is no info.

[mike ford]

This is also my opinion, except I believe it was stocked in the US.A wartime factory stock would never have had an American Eagle motif on the forearm, or a high gloss finish.
Mike

[Slatz1nick]

Does the model of 243 seem correct? I couldn't find any other 243s out there but was told that is where they stamp the model number on the guns. Thank you for all of the info so far, it is greatly appreciated!

[Axel E]

243 is not a "model number", but the date of proof, February 1943.
The gun seems to be an ordinary model 201 (non - ejector) or 201E (ejector) with Blitzlocks = triggerplate locks, Kersten lockup only, "engraving to order (catalog description)". The American one - piece beavertail foreend is definitely non - Merkel. Merkel foreends were usually three - piece, with upper wood strips screwed to the barrel assembly. The gun with it's novel engraving may have been sitting in Merkel's inventory not yet stocked until liberated, later stocked by an American craftsman, using Black Walnut and shaping the foreend like those on a Browning o/u.

[mike ford]

This is why it(IMHO)is important to find out the "story" of how the German guns, we aquire, found their way to the US, if possible. It a sad fact that we are losing more and more of our WW2 veterans, every day(German veterans also).The story of how and where the gun was aquired is an important part of the gun's history, and family history.We all hear stories of how many were saved from the tank treads or fires, but very many were hidden and found their way here by other routes. We have discussed 5.6x61R vom Hofe rifles on this forum for the last couple months. My 5.6 was hidden in a haystack, wraped in burlap, by the forester of Kloster Forst at Kitzingen a/Main. In 1946, my late friend and mentor Gene Enterkin was stationed there as part of the occupation forces, when I was about a year old. He befriended the forester and was given the rifle(or maybe traded something for it, times were hard for the Germans).A couple decades later, I was stationed near there and spent time in Kloster Forst.A couple decades still later, Gene told me the story(among others)and after his death, I was able to buy the rifle from his wife, also a friend.This history is the reason the rifle is so dear to me, not the rifle, itself, or the caliber. The story of the Merkel, if known, would likely add much to the appreciation of it.
Mike

[chapmen]

We all hear stories of how many were saved from the tank treads or fires. Mike

That sounds so great ........

i know that i dont make friends with this.....

But it is time to see the real things, the biggest amount of german hunting ( and other) weapons where just stolen as an war bring back.

Thats the truth and its time to call it by the name.

[Nathaniel Myers]

While they may be lying, most of the WWII veterans I have known, bought, traded, bartered or otherwise acquired through commerce their "bring backs". For example, my great uncle shipped home a large crate of rifles, each he personally bought or traded for. Now, if your implying the Germans he bought them from, stole them from their owners, that may be the case, I don't know.

But your right, you won't make any friends, and you risk making yourself look idiotic. My grandfather stole several items from Germans. He picked them up off the dead corpses of men who were trying to kill him. He was a dumb farm boy from a small town just as they were. He happened to make it out and they didn't.

I'll argue the reasons with you until the data servers overload as to whether it was right or wrong. I cannot fathom being in your shoes wanting to start an argument concerning the moral compasses of our fore fathers. I am more than willing to read your moral imperative as you see it.

Alcohol, now that was another matter. Every WWII veteran I spoke with said if there was alcohol in a house they were sleeping in, they drank it.

[chapmen]

I dont want to say whats good and whats wrong, i just dont like these " they was rescued for beeing destroyed". Thats an part of the truth, but not the hole truth.
I often speak to older people that are witnesses of the end of war in germany. If you hear their storys you learn that there were two personalities in the allied forces,
a lot of them were "gentleman", but also a quite bunch was completely different.
I know that the germans before 1945 were not better.
As an german i know what we have done, but i am from an generation that has no personal fault on the things that happened.
I think for all parties the time has come to keep up the truth.

[John]

If, at the end of the war - ALL guns were to be turned in, then that action/mandate is the one with which one may take issue. (From the German viewpoint)

From the Allies viewpoint, I guess that was the standard protocol.

So, if someone is forced to throw their guns away, a person who "rescues" a piece from the curbside garbage is not a thief. ...an opportunist, but not a thief.


After all the horror that occurred during that war (and after all of these years) - I think we all have bigger fish to fry.

(Just my opinion... I know that I would not want to give up my favorite arms.)


Peace to us all !

[chapmen]

I think there is no way to discuss this here, the viewpoints are too much apart.
But for instance one story from my father........
They where very religious and had many old bibles from 17 and 18th century at home, also silver candlelighter and other stuff. One day in 1945 4-5 US Soldiers came in the house and they say we have to look for nazis.
They looked in every room and every cabinet. One of them looked very interested at the old bibles and sayed to the father of my father that he have to give them him, other wise he will report that all in this house are nazis.
He took around 5 bibles, silver cruzifics and candlelighters.
So what is this?
The same happens with guns.

[mike ford]

Chapman,
see below

[mike ford]

Chapman,
If you want to find out about stealing, ask a Jew. Guns were contraband, under penalty of death.Bibles and silver were not.

[Nathaniel Myers]

Chapman, as you said, you and I would likely never come to an understanding, at least not in this manner. I hope that someday you and I will meet. Possibly over a good beer, and discuss this like gentleman.

I think I will sum up my opinion as follows. There are always bad people in every group. I don't care what nationality, what time period, it is always the case. My point is a simple one. Your argument in its microcosm is correct. Those men were thieves. If they had been in Pattons army and caught they would have been hanged. That previous sentence is the difference. The social construct of "theft" was still a wrong doing. I won't consider myself an expert on WWII, but I am quite learned about it from the strategic, economic, and pitical aspects. From einsatzgruppen to Truman agonizing over the bomb. The moral construct of "theft" followed the U.S. Military across the globe. It did not follow the German Army.

Period.

Should we be honest about it, absolutely. There is something said about those who live in glass houses. . .

[rtenenbown]

What is this supposed to mean?
If you want to find out about stealing, ask a Jew.