Waffen Honold

[mike ford]

I said in the begining that it was only a suspicion,based only on the uncharacteristically poor workmanship.We have all seen things that seemed illogical, not knowing the circumstances, under which they were done. I was once called upon to repair a Browning A Bolt that had a hole drilled into the chamber,and a tap broken off in the hole.The rifle was factory drilled and tapped, so it was not logical to me that it would be drilled again. The pawn shop employee thought it was logical because the scope mount he had been told to use had a different hole spacing.Shortly after the war, when people were having a hard time, it would be understandable that someone, inexperienced, could cut a dovetail through the reciever ring of a GIs War Trophy rifle, trying to mount a scope and ruin it. To some of us,it is illogical to rechamber a 7x57 to 7x64. With regard to the quality of springfield and Winchester actions, every one has an opinion, and if we all had the same opinion, there would be only one happy woman and one color car in the whole world (or one caliber rifle).
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Axel, if I may ask, what makes you say Jaeger as opposed to one of the Kelber's?

Raimey, could you expand a little on your statement? I have E. Schmidt & Haberman, Suhl 40-41. And I did find Jung, (several) but none are listed as barrel makers or past 1930?

Axel and Raimey, what are you referencing to, to determine the names? Obviously your experience, but you must have a list of the makers in Suhl during certain time periods?

Jaeger listed as a gun barrel maker in Zella-Mehlis in 1939-45. Is this a process of deduction as most others are only listed to 41?

[ellenbr]

Sauer was the only game in town for Krupp's Gewehr Lauf Stahl tubes and they were always sold as a brace. You won't find Sauer listed as a tube maker(non-pattern welded) so who was rolling them for Sauer? More than likely you will not find a tube maker's mark on a Sauer example but instead you'll see process marks. Same for Kreighoff. For concerns that have been founded since the early to mid 1800s, I'd say they knew how to make tubes and may have contributed to the mechanization. But you may not find them listed as tube makers, profilers, rifling cutters, chamber reamers, etc. One of the Jungs hung out his shingle in the mid 1840s.


This example has both the pound sign & the interlaced J & Y.

There are list of craftsmen for Suhl from say 1845/1846, some compiled during the DDR days & then there's Greenhill's. What would be required would be a Gewehrkarte for specific examples that exits & attempt to correlate the mechanics to the task.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

[QUOTE=ellenbr;5948]Sauer was the only game in town for Krupp's Gewehr Lauf Stahl tubes and they were always sold as a brace. [QUOTE]

Not quite. Sauer was the only Suhl distributor for Krupp's upgrade "three ring" barrel steel. Krupp's standard quality Gewehrlaufstahl without the Krupp "Three rings" logo was available to all barrel makers through common trade channels. BTW, the Krupp "three rings" stand for Krupp's most successful product of the 1860s, their patented seamless railway tires. All the great American railway companies that won the West rolled on wheels with Krupp made steel tires.

[Dan Patch]

The Springfield 1903 action lacks the inner collar for the reason that it was based on the 1893 Spanish Mauser, which also lacked that feature. Many people assume the '03 was based on the 1898 Mauser, but there is no real evidence the designers at Springfield in 1899-1900 were even aware of its existence. Ludwig Olson, in the first (1951) edition of his Mauser Bolt Rifles, outlines the basis of the design of the '03's predecessor 1900 design in the statement "several of the Spanish Model 93 Mausers were captured during the war with Spain, and it was this model Mauser which Springfield Armory copied." (MBR 1951, v.2, p.62). I discussed this matter with Olson in the year 2000, and he indicated that statement continued to be his opinion of the matter. There is a significant section in the 1951 self-published first edition of MBR devoted to non-Mauser rifles based closely on Mauser designs. This material has, unfortunately, never appeared in print since. Dan

[Nathaniel Myers]

Is there any detailed information on the difference in steels? This corresponds with the JP Sauer you were helping me with in the other thread. It had the 3-ring Krupp Laufstahl. I have a book on Krupp I have never read, now may be a good time.

I was told once the allies won WWI and WWII with Krupp steel. Most of the allies artillery were built with Krupp steel (or by Krupp) particularly the barrels and breech blocks. Anecdotal as I have no information to the sort.

Very interesting of course about the railroad wheels!

[Nathaniel Myers]

I have Greenhills book, but it is often useless in corresponding a maker of you don't know the makers name. I was thinking an excel spreadsheet or something to cross reference names / craft / time period and one could sort. Ideally you could attach any know makers marks tied to any dated examples.

I guess my quandary is knowing where to start when looking at these marks on a rifle or other arms.

[ellenbr]

1st, I''d commit Greenhill's text to memory as it is a good base reference. Or take each mechanic with a Suhl, Z-M & surrounding area enter it into a spreadsheet with expertise and location as well as date range and make that searchable.

There's tons of steel info on Doublegunshop with some of it in the GGCA sanctioned German & Austrian section.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

[QUOTE=Axel E;5951][QUOTE=ellenbr;5948]Sauer was the only game in town for Krupp's Gewehr Lauf Stahl tubes and they were always sold as a brace.

Not quite. Sauer was the only Suhl distributor for Krupp's upgrade "three ring" barrel steel. Krupp's standard quality Gewehrlaufstahl without the Krupp "Three rings" logo was available to all barrel makers through common trade channels. BTW, the Krupp "three rings" stand for Krupp's most successful product of the 1860s, their patented seamless railway tires. All the great American railway companies that won the West rolled on wheels with Krupp made steel tires.

Sort of pedantic there Axle & I'll remember that as no wide girth & you should well know I know what 3 Ringe Stahl denotes. Should/when you make an error I will find pleasure in nailing you to the wall. Watch your back & maybe you should employ French speaking Friar Fred for the task also.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

And before you attempt to school me on the spelling of your 1st name, yes that was indeed an intentional misspelling as I intend to poke you in the eye with an axel(bar) of 3 Ringe Stahl.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse