Need "HELP" First Drilling

[CaptainRAN]

I inherited my first Drilling and know nothing about this firearm.
I certainly would appreciate any information the knowledgeable members can provide.
My photos aren't the best due to quality of my camera.
If additional photos and details will help please let me know.
Thanks in advance for your help
There is the lettering on top of the barrels < G.L. RASCH BRAUNSCHWEIG >

[mike ford]

CaptainRAN,
Your drilling is the type known as a Doppelbuechsdrilling, which means double rifle drilling. It was proofed for 2.1 grams blattchen pulver(32.1 grains flake powder) and a St.M.G(steel jacketed bullet) in some cartridge.To ID the cartridge, we will need additional photos and maybe a chamber cast, and the results of "slugging" the barrel to determine groove diameter. We especially need photos of the markings under the barrels and on the barrel flats.You may have to clean them with fine steel wool a little,and if that's not enough you may need to highlight the marks a little with chalk or similar. Flake powder and steel jacketed bullets were used with "nitro" cartridges.If you see the word nitro on the barrels, send a photo of it also.This can help determine where it was likely made.
Mike

[CaptainRAN]

Thanks very much for your information.
I will try and take additional photos as suggested along with gathering data from the barrels.
If possible can you give me a "ball park" estimate of it's rarity and present value?
Thanks again for your assistance in my request.

[ellenbr]

G.L. Rasch Braunschweig thread

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...unschweig)-SxS

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

CaptainRan,
Since the gun was inherited,I hope you don't sell it,I know it is not mine however.I don't estimate the value of someone else's gun that I don't have "in hand".As far as rarity, we see them sometimes, but not very often. When we see the other photos and other data, we can give more help.
Mike

[CaptainRAN]

Additional Photos as suggested

I tried to take a few photos with the marks from the areas you suggested...here is what I came up with.
Also I found a box of rifle ammo 9,3x72R...The shell fit the breech but when did a bullet test on the muzzle end the diameter of the bullet was a very loose fit.
Can you inform me how the lower shotgun barrel is fired? It appears the two hammers strike the firing pins for the upper two rifle barrels...
I noticed a number on the barrel flat on each side...Is this the serial number for the gun? If so should this same number appear on the receiver? If so where on the receiver.

Thanks

QUOTE=mike ford;5244]CaptainRan,
Since the gun was inherited,I hope you don't sell it,I know it is not mine however.I don't estimate the value of someone else's gun that I don't have "in hand".As far as rarity, we see them sometimes, but not very often. When we see the other photos and other data, we can give more help.
Mike[/QUOTE]

[sharps4590]

The lever that looks like a conventional top lever to open the action is the barrel selector. Push it to the left and it will in turn push a block into a mortise beneath the right hammer. That block is in turn impacted by a corresponding shoulder on the right hammer and transfers the energy to the lower barrel firing pin. Pretty clever.

More often than not inserting a bullet into the muzzle of the rifle really doesn't tell you anything. All that may be exposed is the ogive which would be loose. It will be the body of the bullet that fits the bore. Also, just because a cartridge will slide into the chamber doesn't necessarily mean that's what it's chambered to. Even if the 9.3 X 72R ammo fits I would recommend a chamber cast and it be measured to be absolutely certain. Lots of strange things were done to those old firearms....

Yours is about the 2nd or 3rd double rifle drilling I've seen so I'm going to let those who actually know have at the proof marks.

[Axel E]

As there are articles on the G.L.Rasch company and other Brunswick gunmakers of the Rasch dynasty, as well as on guns made or sold by them, in "Waidmannsheil" numbers 54 and 55, available to GGCA members, I will not repeat that stuff here.
This drilling is unusual in another respect, as it is a rare double rifle drilling, two rifle barrels and one shot barrel. As the rifle barrels still have the pre-1911 gauge number 108,42 for a bore/land (not groove or bullet) diameter between 8.89 and 9.11 mm, .350 and .360", it is some 9.0 – 9.3 mm cartridge. The service load marking 2.1 gramm BlP / StmG = 32.4 gr smokeless flake powder / steel jacketed bullet speak strongly against a 9.3x72R cartridge, even though the case seems to fit. 9.3x72R's were usually proofed for either a BlG = lead bullet or a KmG = copper jacket bullet. So it was made to use another, maybe proprietary, cartridge or load. The obscure 9x58R Sauer & Sohn seems to be a likely candidate, steel jacketed 9.15 mm bullet with a powder charge lower than the contemporary 8x57 load. So a chamber cast and slugging the barrels is needed to determine the caliber.

[CaptainRAN]

Thans to all

I want to thank everyone for their valued information.
What do you suggest I do to external of the gun? clean and polish? or just leave it as is?
Can anyone give me a good estimate of what similar guns sold for.
I do not plan to sell it but feel obligated to give my relative something in return as she is in need.
I may also want to get it insured.
It was mentioned I should make a casting of the barrels...Is this something I can do or does it take a gunsmith?
Is the engraving on this gun done by hand?
Is the metal silver or nickel plated?
Approx when were these guns made ( what years )
Does having the scope mount and scope add additional value to the gun? If so approx. how much?
I believe there is a scope and mount "somewhere"?? just haven't located it as yet.

Thanks again and really finding this very interesting.

Regards
To All

As there are articles on the G.L.Rasch company and other Brunswick gunmakers of the Rasch dynasty, as well as on guns made or sold by them, in "Waidmannsheil" numbers 54 and 55, available to GGCA members, I will not repeat that stuff here.
This drilling is unusual in another respect, as it is a rare double rifle drilling, two rifle barrels and one shot barrel. As the rifle barrels still have the pre-1911 gauge number 108,42 for a bore/land (not groove or bullet) diameter between 8.89 and 9.11 mm, .350 and .360", it is some 9.0 – 9.3 mm cartridge. The service load marking 2.1 gramm BlP / StmG = 32.4 gr smokeless flake powder / steel jacketed bullet speak strongly against a 9.3x72R cartridge, even though the case seems to fit. 9.3x72R's were usually proofed for either a BlG = lead bullet or a KmG = copper jacket bullet. So it was made to use another, maybe proprietary, cartridge or load. The obscure 9x58R Sauer & Sohn seems to be a likely candidate, steel jacketed 9.15 mm bullet with a powder charge lower than the contemporary 8x57 load. So a chamber cast and slugging the barrels is needed to determine the caliber.

[Axel E]

What do you suggest I do to external of the gun?
clean and polish?
NO!! This would at once reduce any "Value" by about 80%
or just leave it as is?
YES! just slightly oil the metal parts and treat the wood with wax polish.
It was mentioned I should make a casting of the barrels...Is this something I can do or does it take a gunsmith?
Get some Cerrosafe from Brownells and follow the instructions. You also need a good caliper to take the measurements from the cast. Maybe ther is an experienced American GGCA member close to you who may give you a helping hand.
Is the engraving on this gun done by hand?
Of course, there was no laser engraving or other cheap forms of decoration when the gun was made.
Is the metal silver or nickel plated?
No, just polished and case hardened.
Approx when were these guns made ( what years )
As the gauge number 108.42 shows, it was made prior to 1912. If it is a 9x58R Sauer & Sohn, the only cartridge that comes to my mind at the moment with such a bore diameter, steel jacketed bullet and about 34 gr smokeless powder charge: According to Dixon this cartridge was introduced "about 1910". This leaves us with about 1910 – spring 1912. If it is another chambering: 1900 to spring 1912, not later and not much earlier.
Finding the original scope with the hand-fitted mount tops would add considerably to the value.

[sharps4590]

Cap', without having a firearm actually in hand it is hugely difficult to offer a very accurate estimated value. It isn't that no one is willing to, it's that it's about impossible to know without a hands on examination. Typically double rifle drillings command a premium, as Axel mentioned, because they are not all that common. If you find the scope with the rings it goes up again, as Axel said.

If I were looking for a value for a firearm such as yours I'd check the internet auction sites for similar firearms that actually sold. Even then about the best that can be extrapolated is a range.

I looked briefly through Guns International and found this one. It's newer and certainly has one of the 'right' names on it. It's also a two barrel set.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Pre...n_id=100498166

I didn't search very long and I know there are more out there both for sale and that have sold.

[CaptainRAN]

Thanks again for the valued information.
What gauge is rhe shotgun on this gun? 16ga?
Is there "after market" scopes and scope mounts to fit this gun?
How can I tell if the mount and scope are original and correct for this gun?
Should I look for any special markings on the scope or mount?
I noticed "drilling scopes" on Gun Brokers and they don't seem to sell for very much...maybe I am looking at the wrong thing?
I understand about giving the value of a gun without putting your hands on it.
I had no idea and was just needed to know if it was in the thousands or hundreds.
I am located near the Houston, Texas area.
If there is a GGCA member who would consider looking over my gun please let me know.

Many thanks

[fuhrmann]

As the experts may have overlooked your questions, here is some input:

What gauge is rhe shotgun on this gun? 16ga?
This can't be determined from your photographs. Most were 16 gauge.
Check chamber length, it is quite probably for 65mm / 2.5 inches shells.
Check for Nitro proof marks, too, on the shotgun barrel.

Is there "after market" scopes and scope mounts to fit this gun?
No!

How can I tell if the mount and scope are original and correct for this gun?
Because they fit!
There should be 4 tiny "feet" or "claws" on the bottom of the scope that will fit into the recesses or "holes" on the top of the gun.
Google "Suhler Einhakmontage" (Suhl claw mount) to see how the system works.
And take great care when trying any unknown combination, those feet are delicate and easily bent or damaged!

Should I look for any special markings on the scope or mount?
Normally there aren't any.

I noticed "drilling scopes" on Gun Brokers and they don't seem to sell for very much...maybe I am looking at the wrong thing?
I don't know what you saw there.
An old scope alone is cheap and rather useless.
The money is in the mounting system - this was hand-fitted, so a scope from one rifle will practically never fit on another.
You can still have these mounts fitted today, but they are expensive and rarely used.

Regards, fuhrmann