J. P. Sauer 9mm Shotgun

[jamned]

I cannot find any info on this gun. J.P. Sauer & Sohn single shot, falling block, 9mm shotgun. Chamber casting confirmed gauge. I have seen top break actions in 9mm, but nothing on a falling block action. Any help? Thanks, Jim.

[mike ford]

Jamned,
I'm not familiar with this gun, but it is not a "falling block" action,it is instead a "swinging block".Note that the block does not slide up and down in the action, it swings on the pin in front of the trigger. This is a common mistake that is often made. I suspect, with no proof, that it was made by someone else and marketed by Sauer. This could be verified if it carries Zella-Mehlis proof marks. Can you post the markings on the gun, including those on the barrel, under the forearm.
Mike

[Axel E]

Another example of the Close cooperation between Sauer & Sohn, Suhl, and Henry Pieper, Liege, Belgium. S&S and Pieper shared the same Berlin outlet about 1882 - 1900. Many early "Sauer & Sohn" marked guns actully made by Pieper for them, incorporating Pieper's patented monobloc, proofed in the white in Belgium and subsequently finished by S&S are known, see Jim Cate's book, pages 70, 71, 194.
Frank de Haas in his book "Single Shot Rifles & Actions" shows the same swinging block action, but his example is marked "H.PIEPER" and "THE MARKSMAN". So IMHO your gun was made by Pieper for sale by Sauer & Sohn.
Please, take off the foreend and look for any proof- and other marks under the barrel.

[jamned]

Here are a couple pics of the marks on the bottom of barrel, & on top of barrel, a crown over V. I can't make out the other marks, besides the "S", Jim.

[Axel E]

The crown/V = Vorratszeichen = in stock mark tells us, the gun was in stock, ready for sale, at the maker, a wholesaler or retailer in March 1893, when the German proof law became effective. It was really a proof exemption mark. The S&S serial number appears to be some times earlier, but they numbered their guns at the start of making. They numbered all their guns, regardless of type or model, in one series.
The "cavemen" are S&S Trademarks, applied at different stages of making.
Is the gun a rim- or centerfire? If rimfire it uses the 9mm Flobert shot or round ball loads, if centerfire the 9.1x40R brass cases with either shot or ball.
Why a 9mm smoothbore? A smoothbore up to 9mm bore diameter was regarded as a "non gun" by the German gun laws up to 1972. It could be carried and used by anyone, even kids, without any licence.
IMHO S&S had bought in the action from Henry Pieper to test the market potential. S&S did from time to time buy in novel Actions from Belgium to build "their own" guns for such purposes.

[hendrik]

Another example of the Close cooperation between Sauer & Sohn, Suhl, and Henry Pieper, Liege, Belgium. S&S and Pieper shared the same Berlin outlet about 1882 - 1900. Many early "Sauer & Sohn" marked guns actully made by Pieper for them, incorporating Pieper's patented monobloc, proofed in the white in Belgium and subsequently finished by S&S are known, see Jim Cate's book, pages 70, 71, 194.
Frank de Haas in his book "Single Shot Rifles & Actions" shows the same swinging block action, but his example is marked "H.PIEPER" and "THE MARKSMAN". So IMHO your gun was made by Pieper for sale by Sauer & Sohn.
Please, take off the foreend and look for any proof- and other marks under the barrel.

Sorry Axel,... but this gun was made in Suhl.

Sauer probably has the parts bought, but even made the weapon.
The border engravingon the barrels , the quillochierung, and all the stamps are typical for Sauer ...
also the guns in the book from Jim cate was made in Suhl, of course sauer use the patent from Pieper -or maybe the barrels?
But also this guns was made in Suhl..

all the best Hendrik

[mikev]

Is it rim fire or center fire. Just curious. Thanks.
Mike

[Axel E]

Sorry Axel,... but this gun was made in Suhl.

Sauer probably has the parts bought, but even made the weapon.
The border engravingon the barrels , the quillochierung, and all the stamps are typical for Sauer ...
also the guns in the book from Jim cate was made in Suhl, of course sauer use the patent from Pieper -or maybe the barrels?
But also this guns was made in Suhl..

all the best Hendrik

Hendrik, I disagree. This 9mm gun may have been barreled, stocked , engraved and finished by S&S in Suhl, but the action was certainly bought in from Pieper.
Same with the "Sauer& Sohn" guns with Pieper patent monobloc barrels shown in Jim Cate's book. At least the gun shown on page 70 left Liege in the white at least. It still shows the Liege proofhouse "Perron" and a Belgian star/N inspectors mark, so it was final proofed in Liege. The German proofmarks show merely the crown/R reproof or repair mark, not the preliminary proof eagle nor the crown/B prescribed for a gun proofed originally in Suhl. So it was imported by S&S, engraved, stocked maybe, finished, marked by S&S and sent to the Suhl proofhouse to have unnecessary German proofmarks applied. Unnecessary, because the Belgian proof was valid in Germany too. But with the German proofmarks it was easier for S&S to sell it as "their own product, made in Suhl".