Need help identifying 3 German drillings

[jillandsam303]

I've just picked up 3 drillings. And as a new drilling collector have tons of questions. I've made 3 PowerPoint presentations with lots of pictures, proof marks and information that I've been able to gather so far. If you'll send me your email, I'll forward them to you and would appreciate any new information or corrections the German Gun Collectors members can give. Thanks!

[mike ford]

jillandsam303,
I believe it would be better if you post the photos here, only one drilling at a time.That way all of us can see them at the same time and anyone that can help can post an answer or partial answer that can then also be seen by everyone.This works much faster and any incorrect answers can be corrected. Trying to do 3 at the same time, as we know from experience, is likely to cause confusion.
Mike

[jillandsam303]

Questions Drilling #1

Mike's suggestion is to post each of my three drillings separately with questions. Sounds good so here's #1 and data I THINK is right. Any additional info or corrections would be much appreciated.

Hershfield’s Underlever Drilling

s.JPGP1070057.jpgP1070074.jpgP1070095.jpg2014-11-13 13.02.15.jpg
Question: Manufacturer and town of origin?
Type:
Double Barrel 16 Gauge
Over 9.3x72mm* Rifle
Manufactured in 1902
Serial Number 62
D.R.G.M. Registration # 169054
Action: “Roux” Snap Underlever
Intricately engraved
Overall:
Length: 43 ½”
Weight: 5.5 Pounds
Barrels:
Length: 26 ¾ “
16 Gauge
Chambers 2 9/16th”
Right Bore: .660”
Left Bore: .635”
Rifle:
Markings: 118.5 Gauge
Question: This translates to (8.64mm/.340”). Would today’s 9.3x72R possibly work? They fit in the chamber.
Pop-up rear sight
Question: Damascus that have been blued? Can’t find any pattern or “Nitro” proofs
Stock:
Intricately carved
Cheek rest
Fine Checkering
Splinter fore end
No visible cracks
LOP: 14 Inches
DAH: 3 1/2”
DAC: 2”
Bullet trap (single hole)
Pachmayer Recoil Pad
Question: RANGE of potential Value?

[ellenbr]

Gebrauchsmuster Nr. 169054 - Drei aus dem Abzugsblech ange ordnete Hammerschlösser mit ansrechtstehenden Schlagsedern am Selbstspanner Dreiläufergewehr deren Mittelschloß selbstthätig gesichert und beim Entsichern die verbind von Schloßstange mit Abzug herstellt - Ernst Kerner Suhl in TH - January 27th 1902

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[jillandsam303]

Translation of Reply

Raimey, Thanks! If Google Translate did its job, your reply reads:

Utility Model No. 169054 - . Three of the trigger plate arranged hammer locks with ansrechtstehenden shock springs at the auto tensioner Three runners rifle whose center lock secured selbstthätig and when unlocking the a binding manufactures of lock rod with hood - Ernst Kerner Suhl in TH - January 27th 1902

Which describes the pre-patent for the action, doesn't it?

Does this imply my gun was created by Ernst Kerner in Suhl or did he just patent the action?

Thanks again, Sam Hershfield

[jillandsam303]

More Photos of Drilling #1

Hope these help identify this drilling. Thanks!

[ellenbr]

Sam, if all the images posted thus far of the marks, action are the same drilling it would be a bit odd as the Roux action drilling passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility and not Suhl where Kerner was located. Kerner obtained protection for his novel advancement of the triggerplate. I guess someone in Z-M could have paid Kerner for the use of his design.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

auerhahn or capercaillie

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

At some point, Ernst Kerner & Co. used the Auerhahn - Capercaillie - Divji Petelin as the trademark. I've seen adverts but don't have one @ my fingertips. But that one is not his.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Forgot to note that at least one tube was sourced from the Schilling forge in Suhl.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

First, to set the German heading of the DRGM (= registered and protected design) straight:
No. 169054. Drei auf dem Abzugsblech angeordnete Hammerschlösser mit aufrechtstehenden Schlagfedern am Selbstspanner-Dreiläufergewehr, deren Mittelschloss selbstthätig gesichert und beim Entsichern die Verbindung von Schlossstange mit Abzug herstellt.
Now my attemt to translate the antiquated German to understandable English, not word by word, of course:
Three hammer locks with upright mainsprings mounted on the triggerplate of a selfcocking three-barrel gun (=Drilling). The central (rifle barrel) lock is automatically put on safe (? blocked ). On setting on "fire" sear and trigger are connected.
OK, not perfect, but certainly better than Google.
Hard to figure what this means without having a view at the innards of the gun. Sorry, but these early DRGMs were usually not preserved. If there are no drawings in contemporary journals like Waffenschmied or Waffenzeitung, we only have those cryptic headings.
I have seen that "Auerhahn on gun" trademark before, but it will take some time to retrieve it.

[ellenbr]

The Auerhahn - Capercaillie - Divji Petelin on a rifle with the letters EKC near it are for Ernst Kerner & Co. Gewehrfabrik Suhl. I've seen it on a catalogue sent to the H.P. White Lab(explosive testing company) of Cleveland. The catalogue was noted as being recevied on March 21st, 1939. So this Ernst Kerner trademark dates prior to 1939.

But this is not the one found on the cartridge trap.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

jillandsam303,
To answer a couple of your questions not being addressed by others, the gauge marking 118.35 is one found on many early 9.3x72R rifles.The bore diameter is as you listed, but rifles marked this way usually have a groove diameter of .357-.359".This makes common 35 cal. bullets useable.The larger diameter bullets listed for 9.3x72R norm.cartridges are designed and made to be useable in larger diameter barrels(with other markings),while not giving excessive pressures in these smaller dia barrels.This is a good solution to the problem of accomodating barrels of different diameters without having to produce ammo for each. This means that current commercial ammo is useable in your drilling and at the same time handloading would be easier.
The rifle barrel is not Damascus, as Raimey mentioned, it is marked as having come from Schilling Forge.The proof marks shown are for the rifle barrel and the shotgun barrels would each have it's own marks. My impression is that the drilling has, indeed, been refinished. This can make id ing damascus harder, additional photos of shotgun barrel marks would be helpful.
As far as potential value is concerned, I don't usually estimate the value of someone elses guns that I don't have "in hand".
As an aside, you can see from Axel's translation compared with the google one,the "machine translations" are especially poor and usually only create confusion. They use the common meaning for technical terms and you wind up with things like "lauf" being translated to "running", instead of "barrel" as it should have been.
Mike

[Steve Whitley]

Kerner applied his Auerhahn logo to the receiver top of at least a few DSMs during the mid-1930s, assembled by Hermann Weihrauch and proofed in Zella-Mehlis. Probably done as a favor for a customer.

Steve

[ellenbr]

That's it Steve. Thanks for the effort. Are you going to sign any copies of your text?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse