C. Leberecht Amberg

[hynz]

I have inherrited two very old guns that I believe were made in Germany in the late 1800's or early 1900's The most interesting gun has C.Leberecht.Amberg stamped on the top of the octogan barrel. This is a single shot of unknown caliber. Some pictures are attached. Any help would be much appreciated as information about this is very had to find.

[mike ford]

hynz,
Your rifle is what is known as a Schuetzen rifle, which was used in competitive offhand target shooting at various distances, usually 200 meters. It is a "System Aydt", model1, which was one of the more common of the schuetzen rifles.It is not possible to determine, positively, the caliber without additional information. However the chances are very good that it is chambered for the almost universal target cartridge, known as 8.15x46R. A clear photograph of the proofmarks under the barrel, and any other marks on the rifle would provide additional information.To see these marks, it is necessary to remove the forearm. The forearm is held to the forearm by a "key" and is very easy to remove by taking the key out(from left to right, usually). If you will post additional photos, we can provide additional information.If you provide the same type photos of the second rifle, we will give it a try also.
Mike

[sharps4590]

What Mike said....and you have inherited a very nice rifle.

[hynz]

I really appreciate your quick responses. I took off the forearm and have attached a picture of the area with the most writing. There is another two letters further up the barrell that is either "SH" or "HS" depending on how you read it.

[mike ford]

hynz,
The number 172,28 is the caliber of the barrel, expressed in a ga.measurement. Among others,this mark is found on many 8.15s46R chambered rifles. The rifle was proofed in Sept.1909, as indicated by the numbers 9,09. The 1200 is the ledger number, and the fact that it shows the ledger number, indicates that it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis. The crown over G shows it was proofed for a single projectile. The crown over B indicates a single definitive proof made with provisional proof charge. The crown over U is the mark for View proof, which is a detailed inspection of the rifle. In 1909, the case length was not marked during proof, so the marks don't show the cartridge the rifle was chambered for;but the 172,28, taken with the type of rifle it is, means to me that it is 8.15x46R. The other numbere and letters were not proof marks, but were different manufacturers marks for barrel maker,serial number, etc. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

[hynz]

Thanks Mike. That is really interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge. I guess the last question is what it is worth should I decide to part with it?

I have attached photos of the second gun below. Any information on that is also much appreciated.

[Axel E]

Mike Ford already explained the proofmarks, date and the most likely chambering of your Schützen target rifle. It was merely retailed by the Carl Leberecht shop, Untere Nabburger Strasse 30, Amberg, Bavaria. The company existed until 2005 when the last owner was killed by an islamic maniac. Though Carl Leberecht, 1848 – 1933, himself was a prolific gunmaker with several patents to his name, the rifle was made for him by the Emil Barthelmes company, Meininger Strasse 11, Zella-Mehlis. The (partially inverted) EB is the mark of Emil Barthelmes. At the time your rifle was made the company was owned by Hubertus Barthelmes.

[sharps4590]

hynz, the second firearm is like the first in that the proofs need to be seen. On the bottom of the forearm pull the lever and it will allow the forearm to be removed. Then dismount the barrels b opening the action and letting them fall all the way into your hand and lift them off. The proofs will be on the bottom, near the breech.

That too is a fine looking O/U combination gun. You inherited some nice pieces, congratulations.

[Steve Whitley]

I really appreciate your quick responses. I took off the forearm and have attached a picture of the area with the most writing. There is another two letters further up the barrell that is either "SH" or "HS" depending on how you read it.

hynz,

Does the "SH" or "HS" barrel mark resemble this one?

IMG_20141204_133049_570 (1024x699).jpg

Steve

[mike ford]

hynz,
I usually don't estimate the value of someone elses gun, especially that I don't have "in hand". Since you inherited the guns, I'm guessing they are from a member of your family that served in WW2. In cases like that, I always recommend the guns be kept, used, cherished and passed on to others in the family.In the process,learn as much as you can about the one that left them to you, where he served,when, which unit,etc. and pass this on also. If you will do this, we will help you find a way to shoot them and enjoy them.
sharps4590 instructed you on how to remove the barrels to take photos, you reassemble in reverse order,-except make sure the extractor is "out". Otherwise it will interfere with the barrels closing again. I agree that you are lucky to have these nice guns.
Mike

[hynz]

Steve,

The "SH" or "HS" on the Schutzen looks like the picture shown below. I have also attached a better picture of the other markings and one of each side of the action - which I think are really nice. Thanks again for your help.

[hynz]

Steve,

The "SH" or "HS" on the Schutzen looks like the picture below. I have also attached better pictures of the other markings and close ups of each side of the action. Thanks again for your help.

[hynz]

Mike,

Sorry about the duplicate posts - obviously I am new at this. Anyway I agree with your advice. My great uncle served in WW2, landed on the beach in France and walked to Czechoslovakia where his group met up with the Russians. My brother researched the story in detail but he was killed in a car crash a year ago - which is how I came by the guns. I think I will take your advice and try to reconstruct the history, write it all down, and pass on to my son. I have copied all of the information on the Schutzen into one document. Now I need to do the same with the second gun. Here are the pictures and the markings. Thanks again for your time. I am very impressed that I was lucky enough to stumble on to thie site and all of you.

[mike ford]

hynz,
I'm sorry to hear about your brother.In researching your great uncle, id the unit he was in,as far down as you can( to Company level if possible) and the official history of the unit will give you a good idea of what he did and where he went. If anyone in the family still has any mail from, or to him,his unit should be in the address. The second gun is an over/under combination gun(Bockbuechsflinte) and is chambered for 16ga 65mm(the old standard 2 1/2-2 9/16"; not the current standard 2 3/4") and 8x57IR. Both barrels are proofed for nitro powder, as shown by the crown over N proof, the rifle proof has a second crown. The shotgun barrel is choked (likely very tightly) as shown by the crown W. The 16 in a circle is what shows it has the standard 65mm chamber.If it had been chambered for the longer chamber, it would have a 70 next to the circle. The 15gr Stmg shows it was proofed for the 15 gram(231.5 grain) steel jacketed bullet. Currently avaliable ammo usually uses a 12.7gram( 196 grain) bullet, which is perfectly fine. I couldn't see a date in the photo, but since the caliber was shown by the 7.8( bore dia.,not groove or bullet dia, in mm)and 57mm; it was proofed after 1912, when the improvements in the proof law came into effect. I think it was proofed before the mid 20s,due to the lack of a date. If I'm wrong, Axel will correct me. I couldn't see a clear indication of the proofhouse, but believe it was Suhl . If you find the word "Nitro" written in block letters, this is correct; but if written in script, it was Zella-Mehlis like the other rifle( if ZM, it should have a date).
Some of the others may come in with additional information later. I hope you find this helpful. I wish you and your family a Happy New Year.
Mike

[hynz]

Mike,

It has Nitro written in block letters. Above that is also has "Nurnberg" written on one side in script and "Simon Heim" in script on the other side of the barrel. Thanks again for the info. I guess it is time to start researching the guy who brought it to the US. Merry Christmas and happy new year to your family as well.