Max Moeller - Zella Mehlis

[Peter D.]

Hallo, Raimey
You see, good old Max Moeller worked out of Zella Mehlis. I do not think he would have used a stamp design including the letter "S", thus advertising the competing rival gun city of Suhl. Sure, the two cities are only spitting distance away from each other, but, because of their history, they still take pride in being recognized individually.
Tschuess
Peter

[ellenbr]

Ah, Peter you caught me!!!

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread,it's just that I bought a "no name" drilling recently, that was proofed in Z-M in 1930. It had two Ms,side by stide, on the rifle barrel; and at another location it has 2 Ms(one on top of the other) enclosed in a circle. The "Max Moeller" thread made me think it might be, it. The way to know would be to match the logo to something known.
Mike

[Mauser]

Axel E. and Mike Ford have been helping me id this rifle which Axel state is a Max Moeller's. Here are the barrel proofs. The engraving pattern is different and branded a Gebr. Praunsmandtl . Ingolstadt. I am beginning to feel blessed to have acquired this rifle. It's a 7x57 Mauser

I am also grateful for the wealth of information on GGCA and the members posts. I have learned a great deal about a very unique customized Mauser.




Ed

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[Axel E]

About the Siemens & Halske and "Bayard", Henry Pieper, Liege marks on M98 Mausers: These marks are under the receiver rings, forward of the recoil lug. These unusual factory marks usually appear on WW1 miltary Gewehr 98 large ring actions. During WW1 more and more Gewehr 98 military rifles were needed to arm the expanding German armies and to replace the terrible losses. Prior to 1914 the state arsenals Spandau, Erfurt, Danzig and Amberg only made the German military rifles, while DWM and Mauser catered to the foreign export markets. Though DWM and Mauser converted to make the German rifles , a new factory was built at Oberspree and the arsenals worked around the clock, total production still could not meet demand. From 1915 on the capacity of the Suhl and Zella – Mehlis guntrade was used too to make parts and assemble complete rifles. Even the arsenals started using farmed out parts on some of their production, the star marked rifles. The Suhl companies Sauer & Sohn, Haenel, V.C.Schilling and Simson assembled complete rifles for the armies. Though most of M98 parts could be made by the guntrade, receivers were beyond their abilities. The bottleneck of 98 production during both World Wars was the complicated and time consuming machining of receivers that needed special shapers and broaches. The Suhl companies never made a single Mauser M98 receiver themselves. They, like the Spandau and Amberg arsenals in part, relied on receivers made by Erfurt and Danzig. So the making of M98 large ring receivers was farmed out to two appropiately equipped companies, Henry Pieper, "Bayard", in occupied Liege and the German industrial giant Siemens & Halske. Both did not make rifles, but receivers only and supplied them to Spandau and Suhl. By 1917 production exceeded demand of the now shrinking armies. So Gewehr 98 production outside the established makers was stopped. Apparently some numbers of Bayard marked receivers were left over in Suhl. At least, I have seen the Bayard mark on many guns made during the interwar years, not only on rifles by Funk, Schüler, Schmidt & Haberman/Brenneke and others, but on Remo and Geha shotguns too.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Did they make M88 Commission and New Model Haenel receivers in Suhl, then? It seems similar type (maybe different size) broaches would be used for them. and shapers are more or less universal.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

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I´ve been fed information that the Pieper marking comes in two sizes. Only ever seen the size that´s on my Meffert marked shotgun conversion - see first image.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

Mike, to understand the history of making M98 actions, you should read these books:
Dieter Storz: "Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918" on WW1 production
Albrecht Wacker: "Das System Adalbert, Der K98k" on WW2 production
The M88 and Haenel receivers were made by Haenel in Suhl, but they were easier to make than Mauser M98 ones: On these receivers the left locking lug guideway was machined straight through, while in the 98 receiver it stopped at the C- diaphragm inside the receiver ring. (only after WW2 FN simplified and weakened the basic 98 action when they cut this groove through on their overrated FN / Browning actions) The M98 actions had to be made to very close, interchangeable specifications. In those pre – CNC days this required a complete set of many gages and countergages. These gages were made by the private DWM / Mauser companies only. The state arsenals got their gages this way, but DWM was not interested in providing maybe future private competitors like the Suhl guntrade with such capabilities. Even the half-state owned, but civilian organized Waffenwerke Oberspree Kornbusch & Co. did not get off the ground really, depending on bought in receivers, until sold to DWM in 1916. Maybe it was a minor problem to DWM to allow non-gunmaking companies like Siemens & Halske making receivers only and providing them with the necessary gages and tools.
Before 1914 the Suhl guntrade could not make M98 actions, as the Mauser patents were still valid. During the Great War they, like DWM / Mauser, were very reluctant to invest large sums in more specialised tooling and capacity, unless being given guarantees to get further orders after a hopefully victorious end of the war. So, while negotiating, they rather used receivers made by others. From 1917 on orders for the making of new 98 rifles were cut anyhow. After 1918 Germany was stocked up with left-over parts and thousands of "demilitarized" 98 rifles and carbines. These stocks of M98 parts served the German demand for standard length bolt actions even to after WW2. In the last, 1940, ad Ifound, the Collaths offered 200 demilled Gewehr 98s, stocks and barrels shortened. Even today you sometimes find some WW1 vintage actions or parts in the dark corners of old gunshops. If a non-standard, short or Magnum length action was desired, it was again more economical to buy it in from Mauser instead of setting up for making it from scratch. While the Mauser factory was still closed down in 1920, Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, designed their simplified Mod.21 to replace the non-available short Mauser action. But from 1922 on Mauser was in business again. Now the ESHA Mod.21 was more expensive than a Mauser made K action B! The Mod.21 was doomed of course.
BTW, the Siemens & Halske, now Siemens AG, concern with it's former subsidiaries Siemens & Schuckert, Siemens Brothers Ltd. and countless more were a " company specializing in electrical equipment" as much as General Electric is. They pioneered the making of powerplants (since1866), electric locomotives (1879), electic tramways (1883), intercontinental telegraphs and telephones (Indo –European Telegraph Line, 1867 -1870, London – Berlin – Warschau – Odessa -Teheran – Calcutta, 6700 miles) and so on. During WW1 they built fighter and bomber aircraft, besides engines. Don't forget Siemens – Martin steel.

[mike ford]

Axel
Thanks very much for the information. I suspect Haenel and others had the expertise and equipment to make that "cut", but "reading between the lines" I believe the problem was the inability to procure the gages, which were necessary to insure interchangeability. BTW when I was in Germany, we often had dealings with Siemens AG, through contractors, for various items of electrical equipment.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Axel,

Very nice post about receiver manufacture. I have been looking for a copy of Albrecht Wacker: "Das System Adalbert, Der K98k" for some time, but they are near non-existent here in the states, as far as I can tell. I do not know what they sell for in Germany, but if you find an extra, and I can afford it (probably not!) I would love to get a copy.

I suspect after reading Storz, your posts, and everything else I can find on manufacturing Mausers, that there many issues causing the Suhl companies to be hesitant to start manufacturing Mauser receivers. From the information I have been able to find, the shapers or rather broaching machines used were not what Mike and I would typically think of in regards to an "American" shaper, but more along the lines of a modern production broaching machine. The helix cam surfaces for the bolt lugs, which must time correctly along with the rear bridge cocking cam present another issue. These coupled with tolerance issues by most manufacturers at the time (per Storz), would be sure to make any private business owner leary to start production.

Not to start a tangent subject, but I find this subject a humorous paradox of the two societies. When Germany is often viewed as an "authoritarian" society, private companies could turn down making something they did not deem profitable. Yet the "Home of the Free" United States government would show up with a train load of equipment, inform you what you were making and for how much, along with production quota's. Many companies in the United States went bankrupt manufacturing parts and equipment for the US Government during WWI and WWII (more so WWII).