Max Moeller - Zella Mehlis

[Peter D.]

I discovered and purchased this 8X57IS calibre German hunting rifle through a 1982 Vancouver, BC classified newspaper add. After carrying it in the field for over 30 years, I found myself intrigued by it’s quiet history and decided, to discover as much as possible about it’s story. The Internet is a great help, and in this case, understanding the German language helps quite a bit. Here is what I found out about my hunting companion: The rifle was built and proof fired in Suhl, Germany in July of 1943,

The barrel was made by a well known Zella-Mehlis barrel maker with the name of Max Moeller. This is attested by his stamp on the underside of the barrel.

Max Moeller’s name also appears on the barrel rib, together with the word “Zella-Mehlis”

Two questions arise: Was Max Moeller the owner of the gun, or did he built it for sale (even that he was “only” a barrel maker and not a gun smith”? And now I am coming to a true mystery. What does this mark mean?

I apologize for the quality of the picture. The mark is only 3-4 mm long and my camera just does not get a better shot of it. To me it looks like a the letter S interwoven with the letter M and stylized at the ends with an arrow point and arrow feathers. So far, not even my German contact was able to shed light on this strange “Praegestempel” imprint stamp.
Can anyone help?

Max Moeller-Zella Mehlis.jpgWhat is it.JPGProof mark.JPG

[ellenbr]

Would really like to see Max Moeller's maker's mark on the underside. He was the retailer also and from your blurry image it appears that Siemens & Halske was sourced for components. By the way the proof facility was Z-M

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Peter D
Re. Raimey's remark that the proof facility was Z-M, this is indicated by a couple things but the pine tree in a heart is the "house mark" for Z-M and shows it positively(mark shown on other thread).
Mike

[chapmen]

M. Möller signed extra barrel (proofed 8/41 in ZM) for an Miller & Val. Greiss Drilling :

[Peter D.]

Assuming that there was only one "Siemens & Halske" in war time Germany, I never heard that this company was ever involved in the manufacturing of any guns at all. Siemens & Halske, to my knowledge is a company specializing in electrical equipment. I used to work at S&H, Berlin as a purchaser (1961) and never heard from the "old timers" that the company specialized in anything else but electric components.

[ellenbr]

Siemens & Halske Berlin - you had better check with some very old, retired employees. All signs point to component sourcing from Bayard & Siemens & Halske.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

A recent thread on the topic:

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...ghlight=halske


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

From an 1890 article:

We regret to record the death, which occurred at Berlin, of Mr. Johann Georg Halske, the co founder, and for many years, partner of the well known firm of Messrs Siemens and Halske. He was bom at Hamburg on July 30th l8l4, and in early life went to Berlin, where he set up an engineer's shop in 1844. Soon after he made the acquaintance of Dr. Werner Siemens. and it was in Halske's worksho that Werner Siemens, assisted by the mechanical skill of the former, was able to work out his first inventions in telegrapliy so as to bring them before the public. In l8l7 the two entered into partnership and laid the foundation to the telegraph construction works which at the present day give employment to thousands of workmen both at Berlin and Charlottenburg and at several branch establishments. Mr Halske left the firm in 1867 and since then has been an active member of the municipality of Berlin.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Peter D.]

Raimey
Where do I find information on Bayard & Siemens & Halske or Siemens & Halske Berlin? Even that I do not see a similarity of the SH logo and the strange SM with arrow head and feather on my rifle, I find it intriguing to learn that SH Berlin supplied rifle components. Thank you for all your replies.

[Peter D.]

Hi, Raimey
I did some intensive research on the discussed topic and, I came up with an astonishing fact. In all the published product history of Siemens, Siemens-Schuckert, Siemens & Halske (German or English), there is not a word that they ever built any gun. However, I stumbled across information which attested to the fact, that Halske (a sister company) had engineered and built an air plane rotary engine during WW I. Well, here was at least evidence of some Siemens sophisticated, precision metal work. From there on it was easy to establish that S&H also had mass produced the LMG 08/15, a "light" machine gun used by the German army. Well, I did not waste any more time. Yes, you are right, S&H did manufacture arms. However, this does not explain the origin of the mysterious imprint on the underside of my 8x57 IS rifle barrel; my stamp has definitely no resemblance to a S/H logo. I am also in touch with the Suhl Gun Museum, they have not seen this stamp either, but it's "work in progress". I'll keep you posted.

Tschuess,
Peter D.

[mike ford]

Peter,
Maybe they used a Machinegun barrel, or continued to make barrels for sporting guns, after the War.At this time almost all manufacturing of military weapons had shut down, and it would be reasonable for them to convert whatever tooling they could or use whatever materials they had to sporting(legal) use.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Try to use a glass & capture the image thru it. Is it one stamp or 2 stamps superimposed? But it has an elongated S over a M with the fletch on one end the point on the other?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Raimey,Axel,
Do either of you know Max Moeller's logo, from 1930?
Mike

[ellenbr]

Good thought Ford. Maybe something like MM with an elongated S for Suhl? I don't know.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Peter D.]

Hallo, Mike
My rifle was proof fired about 6 month before the end of WWII. A truly strange time to build a sporting rifle with the Allies standing at the door step. This is exactly why I am so fascinated with the history of this particular rifle. Who had a reason to believe that after the defeat of the Third Reich any German would be allowed to posess a rifle? Yes, after the war the Russians were interested in receiving war reparations in the form of German hunting rifles, but again, that was after the war. And these rifles did not show up on the North American Continent after being proof fired again in England.
Tschuess
Peter