New member needs help with proof marks!

[Mt Al]

Hello,

Long time German gun owner/user, new member. Looking for help with these marks. They are on an Ed Kettner back action hammer shotgun. I did send these pictures to the GGCA link and got some feedback, the most depressing of which is that it appears to be made in Belgium vs. Germany!! That sucks but at least it was retailed by Kettner. I've owned and heavily used an Ed Kettner double rifle drilling and a Franz Kettner "normal" drilling, now both sold.

Thank you very much for any insight into the marks and this gun.

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[Axel E]

Though the rough barrel blanks were forged by the Schilling forge, Suhl, S in hexagon marks, they were sent to Liege, Belgium, to be completed into the gun. It was first proofed by the Liege proofhouse for black powder, as no PV mark is visible. The "Perron" and the crowned ELG marks are post-1893 Belgian proofs, the "12 / C in rombus" mark being in use there from 1898 to 1924. Later, maybe post-WW2, it was nitro reproofed by the British Birmingham proofhouse.

[Mt Al]

Thanks Axel!

[Axel E]

I forgot to mention: The gun was certainly completed in Liege for Eduard Kettner before the end of WW1, 1918. Up to then guntrade between Belgium and Germany was quite common. After the war ended and up to the 1930s, Germany was cut off from international trade, as the Mark was not convertible and accepted. Imports to Germany were heavily restricted, no gun imports possible except for immediate reexport by international dealers.
Further, the gun seems to have been reproofed in Birmingham immediately after WW1, as the proofmarks don't show the "crossed swords" date stamp introduced 1921.

[Mt Al]

Axel, thank you again for this information. I had assumed that it was completed prior to WW1 due to hostilities. Very interesting on the reproof prior to 1921 also. Very excited to start using this shotgun.

[ellenbr]

Amtlich Vierfach Geprüft und Eingeschossen mit Stärkster ladung Rauchlosen Pulvers - Germans set the bar for proof on the continent & the Belgians fell in line

Does it wear the above or a similar phrase on the sides of the tubes? The Kettners either sourced Belgian wares or purchased parts kits & then sourced Belgian effort. It really doesn't seem to have the full regiment of Belgian marks. Gauge stamp seems to be missing or either rotated?? NOT ENGLISH MAKE will aide in dating the Birmingham reproof - 1925 till 1955.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...rue#Post369352

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

I see the Crown over BV, BP & NP but what is that additional British chicken scratching?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Is that a Crown over R on the water-table or something else?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

Can this be the mark in question? The image is not sharp enough to make out the lettering, or one might suspect it is "NOT FOR BALL" otherwise.

[John]

What's the "hammer" symbol visible in the last photo (under the Star E stamp) ? It is also stamped on the barrel assembly (second to last photo)...

The reason I ask is that I have a similar stamp on the barrel assembly of my ca. 1904 "guild" drilling. I've always wondered what it could mean...


Thanks !

[mike ford]

John,
That is not a hammer, it is a Peron(tower), which is the mark of the Liege proof house( idid this off the top of my head w/o checking spelling).
Mike

[John]

Thanks Mike.

I'll have to look at my drilling again. A mark that looks like the peron is on the rifle barrel (near the forearm lug), but not on the barrel flats or water table of the action. All other proof marks are typical German marks of the era (Zella Mehlis, due to proof date). (Pardon my spelling...)

The shot barrels are each marked with "Kruppscher Gewherlaufstall Prima", in a circular pattern near the breech. Perhaps the rifle barrel was made/proofed in Belgium ??? (Then proofed again when assembled into a drilling in Germany ???)

[mike ford]

John,
I think it would be unusual to have the peron without other Belgian marks, but with German marks,this leads me to believe it is something other than a peron on your drilling.Post a photo of the actual marking on your drilling and maybe we can figure it out.It would be helpful if you set up a different thread for this drilling, because there is no telling how far the question will go.
Mike

[germanguns1234]

May I recommend to everyone who does not have one, that you buy Wirnsberger's "Standard Directory of Proof Marks". We have them. So does Amazon. It is the best guide that I know of.

[Steve Whitley]

May I recommend to everyone who does not have one, that you buy Wirnsberger's "Standard Directory of Proof Marks". We have them. So does Amazon. It is the best guide that I know of.

Excellent suggestion, Jon. I would also recommend Darren Weaver's book on trademarks.

Steve