I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68

[mike ford]

Raimey,
OH Raimey, have you already forgotten about the United Auto Workers Union?, Who ever installed the tires would be a member, just as the person that installed the rearview mirror. The important thing is the manufacturer.From month to month, they would have different employees and different outside sources, but the manufacturer was always responsible for the output.For a "one off" or custom piece, it would be interesting(but not critical) to know who stocked or engraved it.It would always be credited to whoever put the job together. The rifle in question is a fine old rifle and would still be so,even if someone else polished it, instead of the one that did. "The thing speakes for itself", as they say. It doesn't bother me if you want to try to track all this down, in fact you know I come to you sometimes, myself. It's just that it doesn't make much sense to speculate about something that can't be verified.
Mike

[Axel E]

I once wrote a short article aon these Haenel rifles for Dietrich, published in “Der Waffenschmied # 33” This is what I answered to Buckstix’ questions a few hours ago on another forum, with a few add ins.
Quote:Never new an M88 could become a 10.75x68! More photos of the action, please? Assuming its been modified to not need the clip?
The Haenel M1900 and M1909 actions are not “merely modified M88 actions”, but complete redesigns made from scratch in Suhl.
Top: M88 receiver, below Haenel M1909


These Haenels used a staggered column magazine, same size and capacity like the standard Mauser one, loaded from top with single cartridges or stripper clips. But as the now common W-type follower spring was still protected by Mauser’s patents, Haenel had to design and patent his own magazine follower leverwork, German DRP 120862, US patent 667865, GB patent 190016348. These patents tell us the name of the real inventor, a Haenel employee named Carl Richard Wagner. Remember, the USA had to pay heavy royalties to Mauser until they entered WW1 because their “new” M03 Springfield rifle infringed on several valid Mauser patents, among them the W-type follower spring. BTW, the contemporary Mannlicher-Schoenauer spool type magazine was originally meant to be a flush, 5 shot capacity magazine that did not infringe on Mauser’s patents.
The 1910 Haenel catalog mentioned a “10.75” chambering as an extra cost option, but warned about the magazine capacity being reduced to 4 shot. So this offering was apparently for a fatter cartridge, either the x63 or x68.
Top M1900 high grade # 9, bottomM1909 # 5 economy grade.


Buckstix, though the rifle is still a Haenel model 1900, not the improved M1909, it was proofed after April1, 1912, when the Suhl proofhouse made the change from gauge numbers, here it would be 67.49, to millimeters, here 10.5mm, for the bore= land (NOT the groove or bullet!) diameter of the barrel. So it was completed for sale between 1912 and 1914, when Haenel switched to military parts production. The CROWN-crown/N proofmarks show that it was proofed using the "special 4000 atm proof powder” for a service load containing 3.2 gramm = 49.4 grain of the fast burning military rifle powder and a steel jacketed bullet, weight not given, as usual.
I agree with Lancaster: this 3.2g load seems to point to the 10.75x57 as an original chambering, but I am not sure. All three cartridges, x57, x63 and x68 existed in 1912 and Dixon even mentions a 10.75x61, listed in the DWM casebook about 1906 as “for Haenel”. If the rifle was rechambered, it was done outside the German proof law, as there is no crown/R or eagle/I reproof mark visible. The 10.75x68 marking may be a later clarification as well.

The other markings, letters and numbers, are unidentified, factory internal quality marks, serving then to identify the craftsman who perhaps made a blunder.
That “seesaw” front sight was apparently a Haenel special order feature. I have seen this sight on several Haenel marked rifles, not only on M1900s and 1909s, but on M88 ones too.
My old friend Lud Olson once declared these Haenel rifles “rarer than hen’s teeth”. He had only seen three of them in all his life and was not aware of the two different models. Hence the confusion in his book “Mauser Bolt Rifles”.

[buckstix]

Hello Axel E,

Thank you so much for the detailed information.

It is most helpful in documenting my rifle. Tomorrow I will take it to the range to see how it shoots.

By the way, Lud Olsen was a member of our Rifle & Pistol Club here in Appleton, Wisconsin.

[mike ford]

Axel,
would you comment on the chamber in this rifle, as compared to the 10.75x63 and 10.75x68 chambers in your rifles?
Mike

[Axel E]

Axel,
would you comment on the chamber in this rifle, as compared to the 10.75x63 and 10.75x68 chambers in your rifles?
Mike

As I have the 10.75x63 barrel for many years, I will have to make a new chamber cast first. I never owned a x68. The modern, post-1940 CIP dimensions don't help here, as in 1912 very little was standardized. A gunmaker was free to rifle a barrel and chamber it to his own ideas and ability. He could even specify the load of GBP his rifle was to be proofed for. Then the proofhouse would load the same amount of the 4000 atm powder and let it go bang. If the proof load did not cause damage, the rifle was deemed ok.

[ellenbr]

Ford, I was referring to the tyre changer at the tyre vendor not at the manufacture. Comparing a tyre installer at the manufacture is a long stretch to a tube maker. But do give me that name of an all-star tyre changer & I'll start the ball rolling by divulging 3 most accomplished tube makers from 3 different weapons making centres: William Ford, Wilhelm Kelber & Jean Falla.


Axel, seems highly possible that you are guilty of an infraction in violating the Axel - Ford rule of propagating the same thread on multiple sites & the other site is not a bonafide GGCA sanctioned site? A double standard I might add. So it is do as I say & not as I do or what?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Raimey, I plead not guilty! It was Buckstix who asked the same question on at least three different forums (correct Latin: forum = marketplace, fori = several marketplaces).
GGCA
http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...AENEL-10.75x68
Nitroexpress
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...rue#Post255268
gunboards
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...AENEL-10-75x68
After returning from travel, I first found his question on Nitroexpress and answered it immediately. As I wrote before, Nitroexpress.com is the forum that caters most to my own interests, rifles, hunting, ballistics, handloading. I don't care if a forum is "GGCA sanctioned" or not, as long as the posters present interesting stuff, are decent and show some brains. Only after changing to GGCA I found the same question again. In the interest of GGCA readers I simply copied my answer, completed it with some bits and pics and reposted it here. Did you expect me giving different answers on different fori?

[mike ford]

Raimey,
Sit down,have another cup of coffee and calm down; it was just a metaphor.BTW I don't have authority to make any rules.
Mike

[Axel E]

Just found my old notes: My 10.75x63 barrel, signed by Joh.Kalezki's Widow and Vienna proofed 1906, has a leade or freebore from case mouth to the visible start of the lands of about 15 mm.
I also found the data of two chamber casts I had done, both without any throat or freebore:
An 1890s Sauer & Sohn drilling in .450 kurz / 2 1/2" D, 7 groove Henry type rifling.
A very early Rigby dr in .500 BPE 3", probably for coiled cases. Sold in 1870 to a Mr.Heath.

[Axel E]

Mine also has a what looks like a tiny "maltese cross" stamped on the bottom of the barrel in front of the wedge bracket. Serial number on this rifle is 19,0xx.

Have a closer look at that mark with a magnifying glass. It may be a Haenel trademark like on my 1900. It shows a little cock, “Hähnel” in German, with the letters CGH, inside a circle. Here is a blurry photo of mine:

[buckstix]

Hello Axel E,

This is the small mark of which I spoke.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks for looking. Since the Haenel's chamber had no throat, I wondered if it was really intended for 10.75x63 and the neck diameter area ahead of the 63mm case acted as the throat. Otherwise the bullets would need to be seated with omly the ogive outside the case.
Mike

[Axel E]

Otherwise the bullets would need to be seated with omly the ogive outside the case.

German factory cartridges were loaded this way.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Unusual, thanks for checking.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Ford, I'm typically cool, calm & ready to be collected & I usually sit but the fine Turkish ground Ethiopian coffee is what gives me the gitters. But per the Axel - Ford rule on anti-multiple site propagation it's fine & dandy when the authors breech the protocol but when a non-principal attempts, well it is flak from all sides. Although I will agree it is a good idea to propagate on NE's site.

That other mark near the forend hanger looks to be an Iron Cross of sorts.


Hänel's chicken scratching

Cheers,

Raimey
rse