I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68

[buckstix]

I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68

Hello All,



I need help determining the mfg date of a rifle I just acquired. Its a custom C.G.HAENEL in 10.75x68 caliber. Top of barrel is marked "C.G.HAENEL.SUHL.GERMANY" with lots of stampings. Can anyone determine what all these markings mean?

thanks in advance for your help.

[buckstix]

[mike ford]

Buckstix,
Axel specializes in these rifles in these and can give you the best info, I'm sure he will be along soon. It seems to be a mod 1909(I think I see a gas shield), which was made to compete with the Mauser Mod 98, by changing features of earlier mannlicher type actions, that were considered weaknesses. The 10.5mm is the bore diameter(not groove or bullet dia.)as measured by the proof house. The nominal caliber designation is the 10.75x68, which was stamped later, by someone else. I reccomend you make a chamber cast io be sure it isn't chambered for the earlier 10.75x63( if it is, there is no problem, you would just have to adjust your cases and loads). Axel can offer you knowledgable advice on loading either of these cartridges. In my personal opinion, you are lucky and will have a good time with this rifle.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello Mike Ford,

Yes, I hope Axel jumps in on this. I did a chamber cast, and it is indeed a 10.75x68 chamber. I was looking for any signs of the chamber having been deepened from a 10.75x63 original chambering. I found no evidence by way of tool marks, but the rifling does start right at the case mouth with no free-bore or lead, so maybe it was deepened at some time.

[ellenbr]

The Powder type & load on the left side of the receiver is pre-1912 then you have the 4000 atm test stamp along with a diameter in mm. So I'd guess around 1911/1912. I saw a large box of Lebel ammo this weekend & thought of some of your acquisitions. Ford, missed you at the gunshow but caught Hummel & Friar Fred.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[buckstix]

Thank you ellenbr,

Do you recognise any of the other "Script" letters and symbols?



As a side note, I really like this rifle's unusual front sight. It has a small bead at the front, and when you push it down with your finger, "up" pops a "low-light" sight. And, when you push it down, "up" pops the front bead again. Its like a little built in teeter-totter.

[mike ford]

Raimey,
I was at the show on Sat. and visited with Jon and the other guys that hang out at Philip's table.We had a good visit, but I didn't look around. I was by myself, the mother of one of my buddies wasn't expected to make it through the day, and the other one is a Deacon and sat with him.I had commited to go to the show, so I "sucked it up" and drove my "ole rag" over by myself.

Buckstix,
A chamber as you describe may be a sign of a shorter cartridge, in some chambers, the throat was the same diameter as the neck area. There was actually a couple other 10.75 cartridges that could show the 10.5( 10.75x57 and 10.75x61Haenel ) but they both have a head diameter smaller than either of the others and could not be confused with them. Also if the rifle had been rechambered, it should have a "repair"proof(crown R). I think what ever the chamber is was the original chamber and the 10.75x68 stamp was added later to Id the chamber, rightly or wrongly. Note that the 10.5 has a , instead of a . IAW old German useage, but the 10.75 has a . and is obviously a different stamp set. Accordingly, I can't tell whether it was added later in Germany, or even in the US. Axel is in a different time zone, maybe he will come in soon.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello Mike Ford,

The chamber cast shows a neck length about .035 longer than the case, which is about the correct clearance for an original 10.75x68 chambering. I agree that the 10.75x68 marking is a later addition, but I think it was done in Germany - because most U.S. Bubbas would have crudely stamped the side of the receiver or the top of the barrel.



This picture shows how the rifling starts abruptly at the case mouth with no lead or freebore.

[ellenbr]

None of the initials of the mechanics stand out right off the bat. Near the forend wedge the Fraktur letters look to be LF. There's plenty of F mechanics to go around but I'd guess only a few with the 1st initial L like Lebrecht, Leopold, Lorenz, Ludwig, etc. Then the script initials appear to be EL and there are several L craftsmen but I guess you could start with Luck? The possibilities open up a bit on the off chance it was sourced from Zella Sankt Blasii or Mehlis. Next looks to be a single B and a rotated S at the bottom of the script EL. If indeed it was completed at Hänel, it could narrow the possibilities. Then if the date range was also narrowed, a guess might be made. I'll dig a bit.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

I'm confident Axel E. will know the sight but it would seem it was a staple at Waffen und Fahrradfabrik C.G. Hänel Suhl:

http://www.hallowellco.com/c_g_haene...rter__9x57.htm

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...680#post661680

After looking at a couple other examples, the script EL is actually EB and that might account for that lone B adjacent to it. Interesting on the above that the LF near the forend wedge is in block form. On the subject sporting weapon, there looks to be a small Crown over H to the right of the load data on the ring. Seems there are similar stamps on the above link on the underside of the tube?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Might be a Star over H stamp instead of a Crown over H. Anyway, the same craftsmen were performing the work on these type sporting weapons. Only a small separation in serialization between the above examples.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[buckstix]

Thank you ellenbr,

Mine also has a what looks like a tiny "maltese cross" stamped on the bottom of the barrel in front of the wedge bracket. Serial number on this rifle is 19,0xx.

[mike ford]

The important thing is that the rifle is a CG Haenel,who was a manufacturer in their own right.Trying to track down individual workmen is akin to trying to find out who installed the tires on a particular automobile. It may be interesting to Id the barrel maker, or if it wasn't marked by a known maker.Uless there is a known record of serial numbers vs dates, serial numbers are not definitive.If there was a throat ahead of the chamber, I would agree it is 10.75x68, but without one, I would be interested in what the chamber looks like in Axel's 10.75x63. With regard to who stamped the 10.75X68, I don't know,either,where it was done, but not everone in the US is a Bubba.I heard G&H and a lot of others did pretty good work.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Ford, your analogy is like a wet paperbag; it has holes all in it. To my knowledge, there is not a tyre changer's guild nor is there a tyre changer's union. They apply no stamp for liability or compensation. Not knocking it, but there isn't a lot of skill to changing a tyre less possibly the high end rims where a little knowledge is critical. I've been around NASCAR all my life and I don't recall such an award but there might be a NASCAR award of sorts. Outside of that I'd say few if any could name one of the best tyre changers ever. If you know of one please pleasure us. There were a finite number of sporting weapons, a finite number of tasks & a finite number of craftsmen; therefore, from a probability standpoint there is a finite solution. It would be most simple if a ledger, work order, list of employees exists but when you consider the craftsmen, task & time it really narrows the possibilities. It's a pretty easy correlation. I'll concur that single letters may prove to be most difficult but I hope you hang around till I get the modell perfected.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse