Oberndorf Mauser Type S barrel markings

[ellenbr]

So close Axel on FN, but there wasn't any masking less it was Siemens & Halske rebadging Bayard receivers. The key/central figure here is Baptist Goeble, direktor at „Anciens Etablissements Pieper", subject to the Emperor of Germany & graduate of Charlottenburg, who circa 1905 picked up the pieces of H. Pieper & equipped AEP with the latest & greatest equipment such as Pratt & Whitney machines, etc. He worked a stint at Ludwig Loewe's firm before moving on the FN, where he was there for some 10 years. His connections & more than likely lower costs allowed AEP to secure contracts. I'm curious if he had affiliation with S&H?? I'd hazard a guess that Heinrich Krieghoff was serving a stint at AEP, or FN, when WWI broke out.

Let's say the monogram is a SK, so then who might be the owner?

Cheers,


Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

As many 1930s to WW2 era original Mauser sporters have a small superposed WR stamp under the barrel and Walter Röll was then a master gunsmith, later head of the Mauser sporting rifle shop, I think SK or KS was such a master about WW1. Simply a factory Quality control mark.

[sharps4590]

Well I'll be dipped....I had no idea.

[Axel E]

From Robert W.D.Ball’s book “Mauser Military Rifles”: Underside of Gewehr 98 receivers with both the Pieper/Bayard and the Siemens & Halske marks.

[robinpeck]

But is there any real evidence that there actually was a master gunsmith at Mauser in 1914 with the initials SK or KS?

Also...What about the MD mark? Any ideas?

[Axel E]

As these marks, the MB, the SK or KS and the yet undiscussed mark forward of the others are neither proof marks nor marks of subcontractors, they have to be factory internal quality control marks for different steps in gunmaking. (Mauser did not farm out barrelmaking, at least not for standard calibers. Alas, their's was the largest barrel making facility in Germany then) MB at least may be a factory code for the barrel steel lot used. Later Mauser Barrels were maked, f.i., CH40 as a steel code. As these factory internal stamps were not recorded and apparently not even durably recorded, any attempt to interpretation is pure speculation. Even Lud Olson in "Mauser Bolt Rifles" and Jon Speed in "Mauser - Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" and "The Mauser Archive" avoid to discuss these marks. Friend Jon would have certainly done, if he had found anything on them in the surviving Mauser factory files.

[ellenbr]

Circa 1905 FN possessed the ability & infrastructure to churn out 500 Mauser tubes a day. Not sure of the state nor of the intended calibre.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

The underside of early Mauser receivers (barrels, to a lesser degree) are notorious for being covered with various workmen's marks, typically a single letter or symbol indicating who finished a particular step in production process (accountability, and pride). Walter Röll was supervising repairs and special work, but I would advise not assuming that you might find a WR signifying his work. Keep in mind that a script WR for Waffen Revision also appeared on some barrels, for one thing. Of the three stamps aligned on the barrel of this rifle (an unknown, the block letter MD, and the intertwined SK or whatever), I would bet that ONE of them refers to the source of the steel (barrel blank) and another possibly to contractor or worker finishing the barrel. Just one opinion...
Steve

[Axel E]

Quote Steve Whitley: but I would advise not assuming that you might find a WR signifying his work.
Here are the barrel markings on my Mauser B, 8x60 NORMAL, serial Nr. 118572, datable to 1937, the time Walter Röll was working at the Mauser sporting rifle department. On the right of the Ch50 steel code is a small “RW” or “WR”. IMHO this was the personal mark of Walter Röll, while he supervised Mauser sporting rifle production. Any better ideas?




On my slightly earlier 7x57, serial number 112909, about 1933, there is a different mark in the same place.

[Steve Whitley]

This is from Jon Speed's Mauser Smallbores book, page 51. Jon was entrusted with the wealth of documents and information from Mauser which was collected over a lifetime by Oberndorf resident Walter Schmid, from personal acquaintances and workers at the factory during that time (Walter's father had also been a Mauser employee during those years). Walter was a walking encyclopedia of Mauser lore, and knew Herr Roll personally. A page from Roll's personal notebook (page 71) is even included in the text. That is "as close to the source" as I figure a person can get, Axel, and thus I am going with that info until I see better information from a more credible source. Nothing personal intended, certainly no offense intended. I just like to have the best verified data I can find, regardless of how much I may WANT to believe a nice romantic opinion.

[Steve Whitley]

Jon repeatedly refers to the mark as "Waffen Revision" in the text, so he did address the topic to that extent. Have known the man for years and still correspond with him, so I may ask about this later today. Have also viewed this material as a luncheon guest at his home, when he arranged a private tour with Herr Schmid through the museum at Oberndorf (on a day closed to the public) in the 1990s. Myself, Herr Schmid, brother Jim. Photo by Jon Speed.

[Axel E]

Here I seriously doubt friend Jon's sources. At least I cannot make anything like WR out of the top stamp in pic 123 and on my 7x57. And, none of the stamps on the earlier rifles discussed here, SK, may be read as something like WaffenRevision. I still rather believe these stamps to be personal marks of the masters who did the Waffenrevision = final inspection, the WR one standing for Röll. I too will call Jon later.

[Steve Whitley]

Certainly do so. He just told me that he stands by what I have listed above, per email. Any of us can be wrong, and I am always open to newer, more extensive, and more accurate information if and when verified. I would personally find it unlikely that an individual at a firm such as Mauser would have their initials in such a symbol used in this fashion and location. It simply does not fit logic. And I certainly remain open, as always.

Steve

[Axel E]

After a long phone talk with Jon I revoke! That WR stamp appears on many guns by Mauser from about 1934 on, not only rifles, but pistols too. This was well before the time Walter Röll came to an important position at the factory. The WR stamp replaced the individual stamps like the SK/KS one the discussion started with, and the AM/MA one on my 7x57 and top in the photo #123 fom Jon's smallbore book. Sorry for adding to the confusion about these factory internal marks.