Oberndorf Mauser Type S barrel markings

[robinpeck]

Can someone please explain the below the stock wood markings on the barrel of a 1914 Oberndorf Mauser Type S. I understand that the 222,5 is the twist rate but I am not sure what all the rest mean.

[ellenbr]

Is that monogram a S interlaced/intertwined with a H, like for Siemens & Halske? Crown over U - inspected, Crown over B - experienced proof in final state. 222,5 is the plug gauge stamp for 7mm.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[robinpeck]

I don't actually know what a "plug stamp gauge" is. I was told : "About the markings, I know for sure 222,5 is the twist rate: 1 turn in 222,5 milimeters. Or, in the Imperial sistem: 1 turn in 8,7598 inches. Or, practically, 1 turn in 8,76 inches. The original for the 7x57." (http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...gonew=1#UNREAD)

Yes, one of the stamps looks just like an old (1850's?http://www.siemens.com/history/en/ne..._trademark.htm)
Siemens & Halske logo. I know nearly nothing about this company. Why would their trademark appear on the barrel of a 1914 Mauser?

[ellenbr]

To whom might that belong & where did you stumble upon it?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[robinpeck]

http://www.siemens.com/history/en/ne..._trademark.htm

[ellenbr]

Most interesting. The Germans had a very large footprint prior to WWI and the Germans makers heavily sourced Liege for components. Apparently German weapons companies could not build enough Mausers so Bayard(H. Pieper) & S&H were commissioned to turn out as many as possible. More than likely H. Pieper's Board of Directors were all German. So I'd hazard a guess that S&H has some affiliation with H. Pieper or German management. I'll wager all the money at your disposal that the 222,5 is a plug gauge stamp(bore diameter pre-rifling diameter).


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

I was sort of away from the possibility that S&H produced the components inland and that S&H utilized a Vienna facility or something similar, but it appears not to be the case and maybe at the Siemens & Halske, AG, Wernerwerk, Berlin-Siemensstadt. Wernerwerk is showcased here:

https://w3.siemens.de/siemens-stadt/siemwwh0.htm

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

The more I look at the barrel markings, the more that symbol looks like an S intertwined with a K (rather than an H). Take a close look at the right side of that mark.

Steve

[ellenbr]

Steve, at 1st I thought so too but the gear mechanism that ole peck posted is very similar to the below. I haven't used any other pattern recognition devices less my eyes but for the moment I think it to be the same.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[sharps4590]

I don't ever recall seeing the rate of twist stamped on any firearm from anywhere.

[ellenbr]

1899 Advert - Berlin, Charlotteburg & Vienna
Wernerwerk - 94 Markgrafenstraße, Berlin
29 Franklinstraße, Charlotteburg

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

I don't ever recall seeing the rate of twist stamped on any firearm from anywhere.

Many Commercial Mauser factory barrels were marked this way. Here is an example on an 8x57, 1914 datable Mauser barrel:

156.14 is the gauge number again. 7.85mm is the bore/land diameter, 8.15 mm the groove diameter. 360 mm is the rifling twist length, one turn in 14.17"

[mike ford]

Back to the barrel markings; my own 1898 Oberndorf Mauser for John Rigby is marked thusly: 7,0 7,25 220 and under this is 222,5. The 7,0 is bore dia in mm, the 7,25 is the groove dia in mm. The supplement to German 1892 proof rules and tables shows 222,5 as the guage number for 7,00 dia bore dia. The number 220 does not appear on the table, and is so close to the above calculations of barrel twist, I am willing to concede that it is the length of twist, instead of the 222,5. Also, my experience with listed twist lengths( in publications, not on barrels) indicates they are not usually shown in fractions( ie would be shown as 250mm, 300mm, 220 mm, etc.). Of course I may be wrong.
Mike

[Axel E]

To me that mark looks similar to the Siemens & Halske logo, but not the same. I rather read it as “SK” instead of “SH”. You sometimes find the Siemens & Halske logo, just like the Pieper/Bayard one, on receivers, never barrels, of WW1 Gew98 military rifles and post-WW1 Suhl and Z-M sporters built on such actions. Both marks are stamped under the receiver ring, in front of the recoil lug. These receivers go back to the 1916 “Hindenburg – Programm” for increasing production of war material. Due to the 1914 – 15 losses the capacity of the few factories making M98 rifles, Mauser, DWM and the government arsenals at Amberg, Danzig, Erfurt, Spandau became insufficient. So the making of the military rifles was decentralized, most of the guntrade involved making parts. But in both WWs the making of M98 receivers was the bottleneck of production, as it required special broaching machinery, not available in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. The Suhl factories like Sauer & Sohn or Simson never made a single receiver themselves, but depended on those made by others. Apparently both S&H and Pieper had such machines, so many receivers with their marks were sent to Suhl to be completed with other farmed-out parts. I suspect the Pieper/Bayard trademark merely was used to hide the real making of those receivers by the Belgian Fabrique Nationale (FN) in German occupied Herstal nearby. FN had the machines to make receivers. Pre-WW1 it was part-owned by DWM too, but as a “Belgian government factory” was reluctant to produce gun parts for the “official enemy” openly.

[Axel E]

Here is the official 1895 extension of the 1892 proof tables with the mm equivalents to the gauge numbers and the black powder proof- and service loads. As you see, 222.5 was the gauge number for a bore/land diameter of 7 mm. Add two times the usual groove depth of .1mm and you arrive at 7.2 mm = .2835”, the “7mm” groove and bullet diameter. For reasons unknown even to Jon Speed the Mauser factory continued to stamp the outdated gauge numbers on their barrels long after their use by the proofhouses. Up to 1945 all Mauser .22lr barrels were marked with the gauge number 459 for a bore diameter of 5.5 mm, additional to more modern markings.