Need Help Please With identifying and learning about this Kiplauf

[USMC8487]

Hello All,
This is the Rifle I need help with. I know not much about it, other than what I have learned from several people, which wasn't much until I met a man who was able to give me some very helpful info.
As I am new to German rifle collecting, I am having a time trying to get this identified, learn it's history, and it's value, and what caliber it is.
If anyone can assist, I would be most appreciative!!! I also have a ton of really good pictures, if you need more, let me know and I will send them to you.
I will explain the marks on the gun as they go starting with the side of the gun.

- On the side of the action, is 15759 Crowned N, Top line shows 06grG.B.P
and underneath that it shows St m.c.
- Under the hand grip stamped on the barrel by where the hand grip screw screws in it shows SS over EM
- Under the hand grip where the barrels connection piece to the butt is, is stamped Crowned B with a Crowned G to the right of it. Under the Crowned B is a Crowned U. Under the Crowned U is the numbers 313. Under 313 is 4.10. Under the 4.10 is 975 over 27.
- On the action where the barrel connects to the Butt, is the number 1223.
- inside the action when the rifle is completely taken apart, is the number 23
- Under the action it shows a Crowned B and under it is a Crowned U
- on the inside of the Rifle Butt is the number 23
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[USMC8487]

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[USMC8487]

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[USMC8487]

If you need any additional info, or other pictures, let me know and i'll do what ever it is you need me to do.

[ellenbr]

Proofed in the final state with #23 as an assembly number. I'd say the 15k number is that of a larger concern where the Tell type sporting weapon was sourced. Interesting long triggerguard bow.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[USMC8487]

Can you explain your answer a little better. I apologise. Why is the 15k number a large concern?

[ellenbr]

Well, if the 15k number is indeed a serial number, then the average of Joe mechanic in Zella Sankt Blasii or Mehlis won't be able to scrub off that many probably in a lifetime. SS more than likely is for Str. Schilling & I'll have to look on the RM. I'd say some Z-M craftsman acquired an example in the white for a larger Z-M concern and either finished it or had it finished. It is highly possible that the 23 is in fact the serial number sequence of the Z-M craftsman.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[USMC8487]

My gut feeling says what your telling me is not good? What does that do for the value range?

[sharps4590]

What he told you isn't bad. If the 15K # is the serial # a bigger manufacturing concern made the barrel because a one man shop probably can't make 15,000 barrels in a lifetime. The Str. Schilling is probably the manufacturer of the barrel and raimey is going to check his sources as to what or who the RM might be. Back then there was still many little shops in both Suhl and Zella-Mehlis, two cities/towns in Germany where the firearms industry was sort of centered. A guy who owned a little shop bought a barrel and maybe the action from elsewhere and built the rifle or had it built. That's how a bunch of them came to be. Not bad at all.

[ellenbr]

Vic is spot on and the process described has little if any bear on the value. This was the way sporting weapons were manufactured, specifically these Z-M type tip-ups/target type arms. Sauer & a few other Suhl makers did peddle these types. Few if any makers dug the ore, puddled the steel, forged the components and scrubbed out an example. It just did not happen. Why worry with trying to make a tube when the fella down the street was turning out fine tubes by the rucksack full. The military flake powder of 0,6 grams over a steel jacketed bullet and the 6,25mm(1/4 inch as you msr/show) begins to narrow the field on the cartridge. You really need to pour some wax in the chamber and make a cast. Place a rolled up paper towel about 1/2" forward of the chamber, light a candle and let it drip into the chamber that you've oiled. It will take a bit of time but let it cool and pop it out with a wooden dowel or rod. What is odd are the lower numbers being 975/27. I have a strong dislike for the thumbnail images but that's one way to propagate the info. But can you email me the image of the proofmarks and of the sides of the frame? Is there a cocking indicator on the back of the top of the action?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

The E.M. is more than likely for E. Möller & I too like Ford wonder why there were two tube makers signing on for compensation & liability on this project. Maybe 2 different efforts? Anyway Ernst Möller signed on for something and I believe there was a person by that name in Z-M & also in Suhl. Might have been the same person, a different time frame, or both?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

So is the number 15759 on the side & underside of the tube or on the side of the action & on the underside of the tube? The size & format of these images are most frustrating. If on both, I'd say it was sourced from the Carl Gottleib Haenel concern and it may be that the 15759 in the Carl Gottleib Hänel sequence translates to a 1910 date. I don't know that they made this type sporting weapon but this would be a jumping off point.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Note, C.G. Hänel is a Suhl firm, not too far away, but maybe the sequence fits Büchel or some other Z-M concern like Anschütz.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[sharps4590]

Raimey, that is a cocking indicator there and I assume that is the safety on the left, upper rear of the receiver.

[ellenbr]

Thanks Vic. After a cursory effort, I think that it was indeed sourced from Carl Gottleib Haenel as many of their examples experienced proof at the Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis facility although typically the serial number sequence & proof date don't seem sequential. What is the tube length?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse