Information on barrel maker?

[Steve Whitley]

Rifle made by consortium in April/May 1934 with J. P. Sauer receiver. Many of these "Roechlingstahl" barrels exhibit both the "AK" and "LK" marks. I had thought the LK could be Louis Kelber; the AK is present on almost all of these. The "Z" or stylized "L" is much less common to see on the trainers. Would be grateful for any info?

SteveDSC_0003 (2) (1024x487).jpg

[ellenbr]

Below is Axel on the Pound symbol from another board:


"...... As US forces occupied Suhl on April 3, 1945, I think the rifle was "liberated" then from a shop in Suhl, before the Russians took over Suhl on July 3, 1945. The US forces prepared a document dated April 13, 1945, listing the Suhl guntrade then in business: 23 "factories", among them Gebrüder Heym at Schlageterstr. 53 and F.W. Heym at Schillingstr. 7 and Mauerstr.3, 28 independent gunmakers, 10 dealers or agencies, 4 barrelmakers, two of them Kelbers, Louis at Trübenbachstr.1 and Wilhelm at Beyersgrund 3. They did not list the several hundred outworkers like engravers, stockmakers or finishers then still working for the gunmakers. On October 25, 1945 Gebrüder Heym are again mentioned as one of the gunmakers producing shotguns (only) for the Soviet Union. According to Flintenkalle , who lists no less than 59 Heym's in the German guntrade, writes "Gebrüder Heym", Judithstr.53, street renamed by the Nazis Schlageterstr.53, owned at first by Richard and Emil, later by Richard and Bruno Heym, was founded in 1913. Gebr.Heym at least made the original rifle, who did the rebarrel job remains a mystery.
According to Dixon in 1942 DWM assigned case number 605 to the 7x75R and produced a first lot of 1000 cartridges. So an avid experimenter may have ordered the rebarrel job in the 1940s, but WW2 ended before the job was completed.
By now I got wiser on that "L" or "Z", resembling the symbol for the British pound sterling: This mark was used by the Gebrüder Kelber barrelmaking company, founded by Louis Kelber in 1894, owned then by Louis, Robert and Wilhelm Kelber. They used either this L stamp or a LK. In 1927 the "Gebr. Kelber" company was dissolved, but as noted above both Louis and Wilhelm Kelber started again on their own, Louis using the "LK" stamp and Wilhelm the well-known "WK". Who, one or both?, for which orders?, continued to use the "GB pound" stamp? Wilhelm at least is known as a rifling specialist, while Louis also made barrel ribs as a side business."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

Many thanks, Raimey. That would corroborate my assumption of Louis Kelber's involvement. I must wonder if the "AK" which is so often seen could be a son or relative, since it is often found along with the LK stamp on these. Every little bit of information helps, and is greatly appreciated.

Steve

[ellenbr]

I would wave you off as AK being a Kelber, more than likely a Klett with a name similar to Andreas Klett or August Klett. There was an Erich Kelber about that time but no A. Kelber. At some point there was an A. Keßler, but I don't think it to represent his liability. Adolf König might have been active at that point and there's Adolf König of Z-M along with August Kreinberger also of Z-M but I'm not sure either had anything to do w/ the tubes. But the pairing of the LK & AK might suggest that a Kelber married into the Klett dynasty seeing they sourced along family lines.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

Thanks for that as well. Someone in Suhl had once suggested the name "Anton Kerner" as a possibility, but I have yet to find any evidence of the existence of that name in the Suhl gun trade. The barrels I see with both AK and LK on them typically have the two stamps in-line with one facing the left and one to the right. Due to this placement, I have assumed they are connected. If so, and how, I may never know.

Steve

[ellenbr]

Oh, we'll know one day. Just need a complete list of mechanics and their active dates. There was a Robert Kelber in Suhl in 1904 but I don't think he was in the weapons trade. I've seen info that suggests that there was a Gustav Emil Kelber (1842-1904) in Suhl with his mother being Laruete Börnmuller and Gustav having brothers Ferdinand Kelber & Rudolf Bornmüller. Don't know exactly how all that worked out but I would suspect that Gustav to be the father of the Boys Kelber that we are chasing. And it is possible that it was Ferdinand Kelber.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

The 1842 date would begin to define when the Boys Kelber were born. By the mid to late 1860s, Gustav would have been established & started to raise a family and then add another 24 years to say a 1870 date of birth and you are well into the mid 1890s, a time when the Boys Kelber became masters of their craft. Also, I've seen that Gustav Kelber had a Schilling as an uncle so that may have drawn the Kelber family into the weapons trade.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

I have been doing some more digging on this subject. The "AK" mark alongside the verified Kelber mark leaves me only two choices that seem logical. Either this "AK" is part of the Kelber family endeavor, or there was a cooperative effort in supplying this barrel to the small consortium of Verband Suhler Waffenfabrikanten for these little rifles. Very possible either way. Haenel definitely supplied some few barrels to this run of an estimated 11,000 trainers, but not that many. It is still possible that Sauer may have done some percentage of the barrels also, and they are a prime suspect in being the assembly point. I wish there were more surviving records of production at Rempt.

Steve

[Steve Whitley]

This marking is occasionally present along with the block letter "AK" above. Perhaps the trademark style image will ring a bell with someone?

Steve

Waff DSM AK logo sn1750 copy.jpg

[ellenbr]

That's neat. Almost a pagoda A pyramid, sort of like Gebrüder Adamy's pyramid but I have little idea for now.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

So there's an encircled GS adjacent to the AK?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

Yes it is---a GS encircled, and a GR after that.

Steve