Nazi Period German proofs on Mannlicher-Schoenauer

[robinpeck]

I am wondering if someone can decipher these proof marks. They are on a Mannlicher-Schoenauer Model 1908 fullstock carbine in 7x57. It seems to have been rebarreled (marked ...ELLER Nr. 067". possibly the "H" is obscured under the rear sight band...so, "KELLER"?) to 7x57 and at that time was marked with German (Nazi period?) import and proofmarks . However, there also seem to be two sets of proofhouse ledger numbers (with the year of make/proof), both 1920 and 1926, and that complicates things. At least that is how I interpret the markings.

I know that the Sequoia Importing Company in the US introduced the 1908 M-S in 7x57, rebarreled in Germany by George Knaak. But I think that was earlier than this rifle.

Can someone clarify any of this? Thanks, Rob

[ellenbr]

Interesting 1926 date for the Vienna proof facility. I wonder if it was post 1926 when Austria & Germany had reciprocity? I'm sure they still have their ledgers but I'm not sure if they respond to any inquiry except in German or what the cost might be for a copy. I have serious reservations that Knaak performed any rebarrel effort but sourced it, possibly to Keller being Nr. 06. Can we get a better image of that stamp?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Those Germany stamps are post April 1st, 1940. Is Knaak's name on it somewhere?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

The two Austrian ledger numbers, 1920 and 26, are not related to the 1940-45 German proofmarks. The German I does not stand for "Import", but for "Instandsetzung" = overhaul, repair, a reproof mark indicating rebarreling. As I miss the usual post-1940 proofhouse and date stamps in your photos, it was probably rebarreled (again?) to 7x57 in early 1940 by either Edmund Keller, a Zella-Mehlis barrelmaker, or Wilhelm Keller, Suhl barrelmaker, or Heinrich Keller, Suhl, a repair specialist.

[robinpeck]

I did not think the ledger numbers were related to the German proofmarks, obviously they are too early. But I was curious as to why there are two?

Thank you for reminding me that the German I (J) means "rebarreling". (I knew that, but had forgotten.) What of the other: The stamp closest to the action has an "N" under the Eagle? That is a smokeless powder proof mark isn't it?

Also, there is no "Knaak" name on it anywhere.

Thank you for the information.

[robinpeck]

My "Knaak" information comes entirely from Ludwig Olson's article "Mannlicher Turn Bolt Rifles" in Rifle, The Sporting Firearms Journal, No. 142, July/August 1992, p. 55

"An article by Ray Ovington in The American Rifleman of June, 1950, sheds light on the subject: "In 1908 the Sequoia Importing Company introduced the Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 7mm. As there was a growing demand for the 7mm, Sequoia contracted with George Knaak, who fitted 7mm barrels to 8mm actions and breech marked them 7.57, 1908. This was done because Steyr would not make the conversion or produce the gun.

"In 1922, sportsmen began to make insistent demands for a 30-06 on the Mannlicher action and in 1924 the Sequoia Company prevailed upon Steyr to produce the 30-06 Mannlicher. In order to do this Sequoia ordered one thousand stamped with the word Sequoia and serially numbered from one to a thousand, with the year 1924 on the breech."

(Sequoia Importing Company, mentioned above, was in San Francisco. George Knaak had a sporting arms firm called Deutsche Waffenfabrik Georg Knaak, in Berlin, Germany.)

After the above initiative by Sequoia, Mannlicher-Schoenauers in 7x57 Mauser were made in their entirety by the factory in Steyr."

- Ludwig Olson

[ellenbr]

Can't remember where I lifted these, probably Hammer's site. But these guys were a bit devious & underhanded. Maybe just shrewd business men.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Looks like the Knaak info may have originated from O'Connor. Knaak & almost all the Berlin firearms merchants didn't do jack but sourced the mechanics of Suhl & Zella-Mehlis(sometimes Liege) & took credit for it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[robinpeck]

As interesting as it is, it seems that none of this Knaak info. applies to my 1908 7x57....not with the post-1939 German nitro proof and rebarrel markings?

[Axel E]

The eagle/N mark stands for Nitro proof of course, proofed for use with smokeless powder loads.
My late friend Lud Olson isn't the last word on German gunmaking. Just as most Americans, he had little command of the German language, so he depended on secondary at best sources. As his wife was German, she did some minor translating for him, but she did not really know much about technical and legal terms. During his last few years he used to ask me about the real meaning of German texts. This way we were able to iron out some misconceptions, but of course not those he had published before.
Stop even thinking about a connection of Georg Knaak to this rifle. As the Vienna proofhouse ledger numbers show, this M1908 was first made in 1920, much too late for Knaak.
Though Georg Knaak called his enterprise "Deutsche Waffenfabrik", it is very doubtful that he really ever made something himself. He opened shop about 1890 at Friedrichstr.212, Berlin. On April 24, 1910 Knaak was declared bankrupt. Sort of settlement followed and Max Meffert (relation to Immanuel Meffert and 8 other Suhl Mefferts unknown) continued. Max Meffert continued to use the "Deutsche Waffenfabrik - Georg Knaak" name for some time, but acted as a dealer only. About a Suhl branch of Knaak or Max Meffert nothing is known.

[Axel E]

BTW that Mannlicher article by Lud Olson in Rifle 1992 started our friendship. After reading it, I sent him alengthy letter. A few weeks later, when on visit to his wife's relatives near Frankfurt am Main, he visited me one afternoon. We stayed in contact until he passed away.

[robinpeck]

Very good and clear information. Thank you. I still wonder why this rifle has two proofhouse ledger marks, (both of course, long predating the barrel)


My own German language skills are poor, but it may interest you that my Great-Grandfather and my Great-Uncle were both rifle makers at Steyr, Austria.

[ellenbr]

I concur w/ Axel that the sporting weapon was made in 1919/1920 and for some issue or alteration made it out of proof w/ respect w/ Austrian law that in 1926 it had to experience proof anew. There are but 2 avenues here to learn the truth: find the original tube or a copy of the Vienna proof ledger. The possibility of the former approaches zero so the only other option is to acquire a copy of the ledger. Also forget not that by 1940 that the Sudetenland was annexed by the Reich and that German proof rules applied so there was no reason for additional Vienna proofs. I assume the original owner was from Austria.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

And don't forget that Austria was a part of Hitler's Grossdeutsches Reich, so the proofhouses at Vienna, Ferlach and Weipert used these eagle proofmarks too from 1940 to 1945.

[Jim Cate]

Axel (and those other members who are interested), the Eagle N nitro proof's usage was mandated to be used by all German proofhouses on January 15, 1940 and not April 1, 1940. This fact probably doesn't change anything about the original inquiry, but I did want everyone to know that the April 1, 1940 date is incorrect even though it has been accepted for years. Martin Krause, GGCA member and patent attorney in Germany, found the original information regarding the Eagle N's usage on the January 15 date and I published it in the second volume of my Sauer pistol books. Best regards, Jim