A. KLESZCZEWSKI, Berlin W8 (QUESTION)

[robinpeck]

The barrel on a 1903 M-S 6.5mm carbine of mine is marked "A. KLESZCZEWSKI, Berlin W8"

The rifle of course has both Austrian and German proofmarks. Also, it has finer checkering (with borders) and better wood than most I have seen.

I note that on the internet several drillings and shotguns are mentioned as being marked with this same stamp. I assume this was an importer/retail (wholesale?) store in Berlin. Does anyone have more information on KLESZCZEWSKI?....dates of operation, ownership, perhaps a catalogue, whatever, etc?

[robinpeck]

For any who might be interested, my questions were answered by Alex Eichendorff of Germany on the Mannlicher forum at http://forums.nitroexpress.com

"The company was founded in 1880 by Paul Aegidius Klesczcewski near Metz, Lorraine, from 1870 to 1918 Germany. In 1900 K. made or had made a see-through shotgun cartridge, the case made of celluloid. In 1906 they moved to Berlin W8, Friedrichstr.73. After Paul's death the company was owned by his widow Angela Kleszewski (spellig changed sometime to German habits) and run by his son(?)Witold K. Afaik the company existed until about 1973 as a sport- and photographic shop. Though they called themselves an arms factory, with photography as a sideline, "Waffen und Photo", I suspect they were retailers with some wholesale activities at best.
During the interwar years fancy stock wood and better finish were Steyr factory extra cost options"

[ellenbr]

I don't have the info at my fingertips but I think Berliner Waffen Munitions Industry was also used. Martin has an image of the shop on Shotgun World or some similar site.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

With some effort, I was able to locate it( kleszczewski ):

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=225&t=318500

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

For those of you following along, the reason for Klesczcewski hanging his gun making shingle out in the French area of Lorraine was that as a result of the Franco-Prussian War, Germany occupied the area and at the end of WWI, France occupied the area. After the Russia-Poland conflict of the early 1800s, due to some issue, several fellas were sent abroad and there was an A. Kleszczewski that was displaced; possibly displaced to German/France, I can't say. Also I've seen several adverts for a watchmaker P. Kleszczewski of Środa Wielkopolska, Poland.

I don't think the concern to have been able to manufacture ammo and wonder if AKAH made or had made the ammo Axel mentions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

robinpeck,
I was wondering why it has both German and Austrian proofmarks, by this time Germany was accepting Austrian proofs, I think. Is one of the German proofs a crown over "R"?
Mike

[Axel E]

In the "Deutsche Waffenzeitung 1900 Kleszewski announced his revolutionary new see-through shotgun shells. I searched the following years up to 1909, no ad or mention at all of those celluloid cased shells. Likely production never materialized. Understandable, because it was a bum idea from the start IMHO. Celluloid is merely a variant of nitrocellulose, essentially highly flammable. You may even shoot with fine strips cut from old movie films used as part of the powder.
But I found some other things about Kleszewski: Until 1907 he constantly had ads offering jobs, often the same job as actioner, stocker or general repair man reappearing after half a year or so. From 1906 on for a Berlin location too. So his workers apparently did not stay with the company for some time.
And, in 1904 the "gun dealer Kleszewski" was sued by the German Gunmakers Association for unfair business practices or fraud. He had advertized with pictures showing a big factory with spacious shops swarming with workers, when his real company consisted of six persons and a small workshop in the attic of his house. "Der Waffenhändler, Ludwigshafen", notes in 1905: Bankruptcy of the gun dealer Paul Kleszewski, Metz.
The Kleszewski gun linked to on shotgunworld bears the Liege Perron on the watertable.

[robinpeck]

[Axel E]

Paul Kleszczefski's or Kleszefski's 1905 Metz bankruptcy may have been the reaon why Angela and Witold K. were the official owners and managers of the Berlin shop.

[robinpeck]

Photos of Proofmarks

robinpeck,
I was wondering why it has both German and Austrian proofmarks, by this time Germany was accepting Austrian proofs, I think. Is one of the German proofs a crown over "R"?
Mike

I have not yet taken the metal out of the stock to look at the marks beneath the stock line but these are the proofmarks visible above the stock. (the one mark on the right side of the action that is not very clear in the photo is a "B" under a crown (under an Eagle) , the same as the one on the barrel, near center right of photo)

[robinpeck]

[Axel E]

Until the 1920s Austria, Hungary and Czechoslowakia did not accept Geman proof and vice versa, as Germany had no such agreement with Austria-Hungary as it had with Belgium since 1894 and with France and Italy since 1914. The German proofmarks seem to be early 1920s. But beneath the woodline there should be the Vienna proofhouse ledger number with the year of make/proof. This looks f.i. like 333.13, which indicates gun number 333 proofed in 1913.

[ellenbr]

I believe most Continental gunmaking centres were onboard with the 1914 agreements from the International Proof Conference but I"m sure WWI put the efforts on hold. Looks as if there were additional agreements in 1924 while Belgium, France, Italy & Spain incorporated aspects of the agreement(s) into law in 1923. Per order nr. 89718 of 1928 saw Hungary fall in line. So I would assume between 1923 & 1928 that Austria marched to the same cadence. Also Britain changed their rules in 1925 but they didn't have reciprocity with German till 1946 and Italy in 1950.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[robinpeck]

Just took the rifle out of the stock. Manufacture date seems to be 1919. The "Vienna proofhouse ledger number with the year of make/proof" is 13808.19

Until the 1920s Austria, Hungary and Czechoslowakia did not accept Geman proof and vice versa, as Germany had no such agreement with Austria-Hungary as it had with Belgium since 1894 and with France and Italy since 1914. The German proofmarks seem to be early 1920s. But beneath the woodline there should be the Vienna proofhouse ledger number with the year of make/proof. This looks f.i. like 333.13, which indicates gun number 333 proofed in 1913.

[ellenbr]

Indeed, it was Nr. 13808 thru the Vienna facility for 1919 with a diameter of 6.5mm.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse