Emil Kerner Suhl 9,3x74R

[txreed]

I am helping a client of mine, an elderly gentleman, sell a gun of his. First, I need to identify exactly what it is, and second, a general/approximate fair value. There are "crown/U" and "crown/N" markings. Other than that, I don't know what markings are relevant. Any help, direction or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Axel E]

It is not a 9.3x74R! It is in 9.3x82R Nimrod, evidenced y the 82 mm caselength stamp and the KmG = copper jacket bullet 13 g = 200 gr bullet given. It was smokeless proofed in Suhl between 1912 and 1923, as there is no date stamp ans the land diameter is given as 8.7 mm. As a 9.3x82R the value is much less than a 9.3x74R, as factory ammo is unavailable and cases nearly so. If the rifle takes the fatter 9.3x74R cartridges some bloke rechambered it. If so it is ruined and dangerous to use, junk. It was made by Emil Kerner, Trübenbachstr.3, Suhl. Emil Kerner opened in 1890 and took over Behr's shop in 1903. Later known as Kerner & Sohn. Emil left the company to his son Ernst Kerner in 1928.

[mike ford]

I agree with Axel, that rechambering from 9.3x82R to 9.3x74R would be very damaging, but I must have missed part of the conversation.I didn't see any mention of 9.3x74. Since they didn't know what the proof marks mean, maybe they confused 9.3x74R with 9.3x72R, which is sometimes used in 9.3x82R chambers( at least this is safe). I haven't seen any, but I understand some 9.3x72R cases,reformed from 9.3x74R cases are on the market. I understand the headstamp on this reformed brass was not changed. If this is the source of the confusion, simply measuring the headdiameter should tell the tale. If it is reformed to 9.3x72R, it should be around .427". If not it should be around .465".
Mike

[m-4]

Upon verification (chamber cast) that the chambers are original as marked, you could list the the gun in the WTB/WTS section for sale, may want to add another picture showing the entire gun so that potential buyers can see if stock is unmodified & with original butt plate. May also want to add a picture of the markings on the bottom side of the barrels. If you provide your location, members here may provide you with knowledgeable folks in your area that can help you.

m-4

[Axel E]

but I must have missed part of the conversation.I didn't see any mention of 9.3x74. Mike

The title of the thread is: Emil Kerner Suhl 9,3x74R

[txreed]

I really appreciate all of this information. I am a bit confused though because the owner of this gun seems convinced that it is a 9,3x75R. So much so that he is including a reloading die, brass and bullets for that caliber with the gun. It is my understanding that he reloaded for this gun. I will try to find out some more information from him. I am located in Harrisburg, PA. I would be happy to find a knowledgeable person somewhere in my area, or within a few hundred miles of me.

[mike ford]

Axel,
It's a wonder that I ever see a deer, if I didn't see that.
txreed,
There is a 9.3x75R that has about the same headsize as the 9.3x82R and 9.3x72R, which is much smaller than the 9.3x74R. As Axel said, it is clearly marked 9.3x82R. If you can't make a chamber cast,you can still see if 9.3x74R can be excluded.If a 30-40Krag or 303 Brit case won't chamber(rim may be too big), then it cannot be 9.3x74R. Is the die set and brass marked 9.3x75R or 9.3x74R? What is the head diameter of the brass(assuming it will chamber)?
Mike

[sharps4590]

9.3 X 82R brass was available from Graf's and I did see some elsewhere, maybe Buffalo Arms. It is not inexpensive but it is, or was, available. The 9.3 X 75R that I am familiar with is the Nimrod ctg. and I made mine from 9.3 X 82R brass. Unless the owner or a previous owner had dies custom made I don't know where they came from. I do not believe they have been available for a great long time. Is the 9.3 X 75 a typo and you meant 74?

Vic

[txreed]

My apologies

Yes "75R" was a typo in my previous post. I meant "74R" just as the title of the thread.

[mike ford]

txreed,
You really need to check the chamber,then, and if it has really been rechambered to 9.3x74R; go back and reread Axel's posting. I have to note, however, that I loaded a lot of 9.3x72R ammo, using 9.3x74R dies as necksizing dies. If the previous owner read my article about this, he could have used 9.3x74R dies the same way. Somebody has to check the head diameter in the chamber.
Mike

[txreed]

Last week several of you were helpful, particularly Axel. I need to make some decisions. Does any of the following information change your thoughts or advice: 1.) The markings on the underbelly of the barrels are definitely 8,7mm/82. 2.) A chambered, loaded 9,3x74R cartridge appears to fit perfectly as well as the 9,3x74R casings. 3.) The 85 year old current owner is definitely using a 9,3x74R die for reloading purposes. 4.) Additional markings on the gun are "FLUSS STAHL", "KRUPP ESSEN" 5.) There is also what appears to be a "non-original" marking on the underside of one barrel: "NY 4240".

Any assistance with the following questions would be very helpful: 1.) Is this a 9,3x74R Emil Kerner or a 9,3x82R Emil Kerner? 2.) Is there a realistic possibility that these barrels were re-chambered? 3.) Can you recommend anyone in Pennsylvania to look at it. 4.) How would you dispose of this gun if you needed to liquidate it?

[Axel E]

FLUSS STAHL / KRUPP ESSEN means fluid steel by the Krupp steelworks in Essen, a renowned barrel steel.
"8,7mm/82" shows it left the Suhl proofhouse and Emil Kerner's shop in Suhl as a 9.3x82R. If it was a 9.3x74R the proofhouse would have marked it "8,9mm / 74". Here you see the problem of the alteration: The "modern", jacketed bullet cartriges like 9.3x74 R, 9.3x62 have larger minimum bore/ groove dimensions than the older, originally blackpowder& lead bullet numbers. According to the CIP proof tables 9.3x82R: 8.75/9.25 mm = .344/.364". 9.3x74R: 9.0/9.28mm = .354/.365". The rifling twist rate is different too, the modern numbers having a much shorter twist length.
The rifle is not in original condition any more.As the 9.3x74R case enters the chambers, the rifle was definitely rechambered some day. As there are no reproof marks, mandatory under German law, this rechambering was either done in America or for a GI immediately post-1945. This was probably done to make it useable with available cartridges or cases. As it is now, the rifle may be useable with very light handloads, using soft and light 200gr bullets at 2000 - 2100 fps level. Using modern 9.3x74R factory loads, 285gr at 2360 fps, is outright dangerous and may be inaccurate due to the too long rifling twist. Here in Germany it would be illegal to sell the rifle without submitting it to the proofhouse for reproof for using full-power 9.3x74R loads. But it would not be accepted for proof unless rebored to the correct bore diameters.
I would recommend you make cerrosafe chamber casts and slug the bores before stuffing any loads into the gun! There may be an abrupt step left in the now barrel leade at the end of the former 82mm chamber, 8 mm = .32" away from the now 74 mm case mouth. Finally, before you ask, you cannot use 9.3x82R cases in the now enlarged chambers anymore, as these will certainly bulge out badly and most likely split lengthwise.
"NY 4240" may e a code for the guy who rechambered the rifle.

[txreed]

Axel E. I really appreciate this information and the time you took to post. You have been tremendously helpful!

[m-4]

txreed,
Agree you need to cast the chambers, Cerrosafe can be obtained from Brownells and is the preferred mat'l for the job, but candle wax can also be used just not with the precision available from cerrosafe. Take the bbl's off, wad a piece of paper towel & from the breech end push the paper wad about an inch into the rifling, melt your casting media & pour into the chamber filling to the top of the extractor, allow to cool, using a cleaning rod inserted through the muzzel tap the chamber cast out & measure, rim dia., rim thickness, base dia., shoulder dia. (if one), neck dia., OAL (from rim face to neck face length). Provide us with those dimensions and we can tell you what your chambers are cut to. Also measure the casting min. & max dia.'s from the rifled part of the casting so proper bullet dia. can be determined. Looking forward to your report so that you can know exactly what you have and what is needed for proper ammo. Good luck.

m-4

[Steve Whitley]

DSC_0004 (800x565).jpgShould it be of any interest, here is a page (courtesy of Peter Arfmann at the Waffenmuseum in Suhl) from an early catalog or ad from Ernst Kerner. He had helped me identify a roll marking on the receiver of a DSM which had been sold by this firm, but likely made by Weihrauch &/or the consortium.
Steve