JP Sauer Rifle

[Thomasg]

Hello All, I could use some help in identifying the model of this rifle and the caliber. Is this 7x57 Mauser?
Thank you for your help.
Sincerely,
Tom

[Thomasg]

A few more additional pics

[algmule]

Hello

Bore diameter

01-JPS&S-3.jpg

Peter

[mike ford]

Tom,
I don't think there is a model number for this rifle, but If I'm wrong it won't be the first time. It is a pre-WW1 sporting rifle as shown by the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter being shown in gauge measurement, which had been changed to millimeters by 1912. The 172,28 is often found on 8mm rifles and my guess is this rifle is chambered for 8X57I but, for sure, it is not 7x57. At the time this rifle was made, the Mauser patents were still in force and Sauer & Sohn used a commercial Mauser Oberndorf action (the Mauser serial number is the 3826 near the recoil lug, the 97602 is the Sauer serial number. The aperture rear sight is American and a type (I think Lyman model 35) that is sometimes seen on Sauer and Mauser Oberndorf rifles and is itself in considerable demand. It could have been installed in either the USA or Germany. After WW1, there were a great many surplus Mauser mod 98 type rifles available, and most firms used these actions instead of the more expensive commercial ones to build their rifles around.
Mike

[Thomasg]

Hello Gentlemen, First Thank you very very much for your replies. The bore diameter is .314". However I am faced with a real mystery. My 8mm Mauser head space gauges do not fit!
Mike you helped me tremendously with understanding the two sets of "serial" numbers. I suspected they were correct with regard to the matching bolt but had no education to back it up. Your a Star!
I also thought the proof marks were pre-1912.
Well a chamber cast will be done.
I will refer to the fine old arm as a "Sporting rifle".
Frohe Weihnachten euch allen!
Tom

[mike ford]

Tom,
I'm afraid a chamber cast won't do a lot to answer the question. In a Mauser, there is a variable space (around .200", give or take) and a chamber cast can't positively fill this space. You didn't say whether the bolt wouldn't close on a go gauge or would close on a no-go gauge. There are different answers for each situation. Will an 8x57 cartridge chamber? If so, I suggest you fire a round and use the fired case instead of a chamber cast (note: American 8mm Mauser cartridges are underloaded and/or use undersize bullets, so as to be safe in either size barrel). While you are at it, check to see if a .323" bullet will enter the case neck easily. If not, also check a .321" (32 Win. Special) bullet.
Mike

[Thomasg]

Hello Mike
No the 8mm Mauser head space (go) gauge would not fully go into the chamber and neither will an 8mm mauser shell. I currently have both 8x57I and 8x57 IRS and both casings stick out of the chamber by about 3/8".
Thank you very much for your quick response,
Tom

[mike ford]

Tom,
Does the bolt face look like it will fit a rimmed case? If so, it may be 8.15x46R. If that is not the case, try a 308 Win. case. If it almost fits, the cartridge may be 8x51. If neither of these trials work, check the chamber under strong light to see if a separated case body or some other obstruction is in the chamber (I once found a metal band from a ball point pen in a chamber). A chambering of 8.15X46R or 8x51 would be unusual, but not unheard of. If it all fails, I suggest you have the barrel removed (carefully) and then make a chamber cast to the end of the barrel and add the distance from the front face of the ring (inside the receiver) to the closed bolt face. While everything is apart, measure the diameter of the bolt face. Good luck.
Mike
Tom.
On second thought, before removing the barrel to make a chamber cast, try a 7.65x53 Round. The bore diameters were determined with "plug gauges" in .1mm steps and were not precise measurements. Some of the 7.65 rifles took .313" bullets and you reported above that the barrel is "a shade under .315".
There are tolerances built into everything manufactured. Sorry about the oversight.
Mike

[yamoon]

I will be interested to find out what the rifle is chambered for.
Mike

[Thomasg]

Mike, will do.
Thank you for the guidance and advice.
Tom

[Thomasg]

Some progress. I have found that this 8mm Mannlicher round fits perfectly in the rifle. What deepens the mystery is that Remington did not put any other information on the box. The bullet diameter is .315. The overall casing length is 2.247" (at the leading edge of the crimp) the overall cartridge length is 3.235". From the look of the box I would say very early 20th century. Any and all feedback is very welcome here.

[mike ford]

The enbloc (packet) clip looks suspiciously like the ones for the m88 commission rifle. Union Metalic Cartridge Company was an American firm, and Americans often confused the m88 action with Mannlicher. In an agreement between Mannlicher and the "PrufungsKommission" (sp), Mannlicher was allowed to use the m88 action for their rifles, in return for allowing the Germans to use the Mannlicher enbloc clip in the m88 rifles. Additionally, Mannlicher was contracted to produce m88 rifles for the Germans. Adding to the confusion, in 1908 Mannlicher introduced the 8x56 MS cartridge along with their Model 1908 MS rifle (which used the m88 action with the Schoenauer spool magazine) which didn't use the enbloc clip. The Austrian and German systems of nomenclature were slightly different, resulting in the 8x57I and 8x56MS being closer in actual dimensions than the nominal dimensions would suggest. Some early American ammunition was advertised as being useable in either Mannlicher or Mauser rifles and this did nothing to clear up the confusion, which still comes up from time to time, usually regarding m 1908 MS rifles. The final answer to your question is going to be interesting.
Mike

[Thomasg]

Hello, Gentlemen I give you the Patrone 88

[mike ford]

Thomasg
The Patrone88 (Cartridge model 1888) is the 8x57I, I don't understand why the bolt wouldn't close on a "go gauge".
Mike

[Thomasg]

Mike, I am equally baffled, unless somewhere along the line SAAMI has changed the specs and "Americanized" head spacing which is possible. Back in the late 80's-early90's the bullet spec for 45LC was changed from .457 to .452 (as an example).
I had a Miller and Val Greiss side by side in 8x57 IRS and the only ammo that would fit was Sellier and Bellot. None of the American ammo would fit in this rifle.
See the pics using the "modern" gauge I have.
I appreciate your observations and feedback,
Thank you,
Tom