A Rare 9.5mm cal. Peterlongo Take-Down Mauser - cased

[buckstix]

A Rare 9.5mm cal. Peterlongo Take-Down Mauser - cased

I wonder if anyone else saw this at auction this weekend. Its the best Peterlongo I have ever seen. The 9.5 caliber is actually a .375 caliber - but not sure if its a 9.5x57, or a 9.5x60 cartridge... anyone with info on what this caliber might be, please chime in. And .... its on the way to join its big brother here in Wisconsin.

as always, your comments are most welcome.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/peter-000.jpg

[mike ford]

buckstix,
I think the Peterlongo series of cartridges are about 70 or 72 mm long and based on a M88 or M93 head size rimless case. I have an 8mm sample cartridge somewhere and that is what I recall, anyway. I think Sharps45-90 has one (as I recall, a 9mm version), he may be able to offer insight. You may have to make cases by re-working the head/rim of 9.3x74R cases and trim to length.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I'm with Mike on this. I have a 9 X 71 Peterlongo I worked up the ballistics for Cartridges of the World. Fine rifle, fine cartridge. Bearing in mind I am no expert but, I've never seen a Peterlongo cartridge shorter than 71 or 72. As Mike said, I made my cases from 9.3 X 74R. Turn off the rim. re-cut the extractor groove, trim, size, shoot. CH-4D had the dies for my 9mm but he had to make a custom sizing die from my cases. IIRC, he told me he made the original dies from either drawings or measurements and they were off for mine.

I was aware of a 9.3 Peterlongo but not a 9.5. IIRC, the 9.3 was supposedly the largest of his proprietary cartridges. But we've all been around long enough to know better than say 'never or always'.

[buckstix]

I'm anxious to get it in hand .. it will be a couple of weeks .. I found that the IAA forum discusses and shows a 9.5x60 Peterlongo cartridge, which looks like a shorter version of the 11.2x72 Schuler, except in 9.5 mm caliber - which is a .375 dia. bullet. Hope it turns out to be such, as I have plenty 11.2x72 Schuler brass that I can form into 9.5x60.


https://forum.cartridgecollect...-mm-peterlongo/46287

[mike ford]

Sometimes, there is confusion concerning proof marks between German and Austrian cartridges, since Germans marked bore diameter and Austrians marked bullet or groove diameter. The bore diameter of 9.3mm fits a bullet/groove diameter of 9.5mm (.375"). Sometimes, nominal cartridge case dimensions of Austrian cartridges do not include the rim thickness. This is the main cause of confusion of Austrian 9x56mm rifles sometimes chambering 9x57mm German cartridges (
higher pressure than 9x56).
There is a 9.5x72 (rimless) based on the 404 Jeffery (10.75x 72). A chamber cast will solve it.
Mike

[buckstix]

I'm most anxious to examine the chamber cast with the rifle, and will do my own as well. (easy to do with the take-down barrel) If its based on the rebated schuler case, I have plenty of brass. Its rifles with mystery calibers like this that really excites me.

[sharps4590]

I understand that buckstix!! I bought what I suppose is a Tesching target rifle and had no idea what cartridge it was chambered for. Mike identified it as the 9 X 38R Tesching. I have 5 cases ready for fireforming. It's a cute little thing...lol! I fired the first bullet out of it this morning and cleaned up and polished the case. Except for a resizing ring near the base it looks factory.....if you don't look at the 30-40 Krag headstamp..

[buckstix]

Hello sharps4590

This is somewhat off topic about my soon to arrive Peterlongo ... but it might interest you to show how far I will go to shoot my treasures ...

I bought this at auction a while back and was surprised at what I got. As you can see from the listing below, I thought I was buying an early Rigby single shot "center-fire" cartridge gun. But, after some research, I found out it was a Needle Gun. Here are some of the references I found:

"... John Rigby & Company founded by John Rigby in 1775 in Dublin. His grandson, also John, opened a London branch in 1865. After conducting multiple experiments beginning in 1824, Prussian gunsmith Johann Nikolaus von Dreyse in 1836 produced the first complete needle fire gun and founded a firearms factory in the town. ... John Rigby and W.N.Norman's Patent No.899 of April, 1860. A very early breech loading patent that used paper needle fire shells. The breech is opened by lifting the bolt straight up which un-threads a shaft that fits into the barrel, thus holding the barrel tight on face when shut. These distinctive rook rifles were based on part of the Rigby & Norman patent (No. 899 of 1860) and were described by Rigby in their records as ‘Improved Needle Rifle’ and marketed as “The Bijou”. .... Octagonal barrel with full length matted top flat signed “JOHN RIGBY & CO. DUBLIN” and fitted with a bead front sight and rear sight of one standing notch sight and two folding leaves graduated to “150” yards ... The breech end of the barrel a separate piece which is casehardened and engraved with foliate scrollwork. Casehardened border and scroll engraved action signed “JOHN RIGBY & CO.” on the left side, and with blued flat lever for the screw breech with checkered tip and blued hammer with long ‘needle’ firing pin. Casehardened trigger guard and butt plate engraved ... the forearm with key fastener and shaped green horn tip ... Birmingham black powder proof marks..."

That's why there is no extractor because the intended paper wrapped cartridge is totally consumed upon firing.
The first set of pictures show detail about the rifle.

Since I always intend to shoot every gun I own, I set about developing a way to shoot this interesting rifle. Rather than making paper cartridges like the originals from the 1850's, I set about producing metallic cartridges that would work in their place. It took about 20 hours to produce 10 centerfire cartridges for the rifle. I had to create a special "dual head" cartridge to fit into the recess of the screw-bolt's face. In addition, the small raised head also allows a "fingernail grab" to remove the spent cartridge after firing.
The second set of pictures show the cartridge making process.

When loading for these old vintage antique rifles I always error on the conservative side. Note the engraved bullet that stopped 1/2" short of making it out of the barrel. That was from the first conservative loading with 1.5g Unique. After the load was increased to 2g, all left the barrel as intended. I love shooting a 165 year old rifle that likely stayed dormant for over a hundred & twenty five years.
The third set of pictures show the shooting results.

THE IMAGES ARE TOO LARGE TO UPLOAD .. SO CLICK THE LINKS TO VIEW

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/40RIGBY-000.jpg
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http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/AMMO-STEPS.jpg
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http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/40RIGBY-TARGET.jpg
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[sharps4590]

Absolutely wonderful! I envy your skills! I didn't know Rigby made a needle gun.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
Very interesting, good work.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello All,

I got the rifle in hand yesterday and I couldn't be more pleased. The rifle is a 9.5mm Peterlongo caliber. A .375 dia bore. I have shown the proof stamps that I found on the barrel and hope someone can explain their meaning. I also show 5 cartridges that I loaded and a case label I made for the rifle's case, I used the chamber cast to get the cartridge dimensions. Its rebated case made from 375 H&H brass with the belt removed and the head rebated. They are loaded with a fire-forming load of 56g of IMR4064 and a 235g Speer bullet.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/9.5...ngo-proofs.jpg

9.5peterlongo-proofs.jpg

click this link to see full size
http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/label-3a.jpg


label-3aa.jpg

[mike ford]

buckstix,
Raimey is more "into" Austrian proofmarks than I. Maybe he will be along soon. What is the final case length? It reminds me of 9.3x64.
Mike

[buckstix]

Back from the range today. Here is the results of firing the 5 loaded cartridges. see target below. This first outing was with fire-forming loads. According to loading data for the 376 Steyr, shown in the book, African Dangerous Game Cartridges, by Pierre van der Walt, I assume the 9.5 Peterlongo cartridge will be capable of matching the performance of the 376 Steyr, which is capable of 2870fps with a 235g bullet, 2600fps with a 270g bullet, and 2500fps with a 300g bullet.

Also shown is a comparison of different cartridges and their case capacity in terms of grains of water.

375 Whelen .... 74.5g H2O
9.3x62 Mauser ..... 74.8g H2)
9.5x60 Mauser ..... 78.2g H2O
376 Steyr ..... 79.3g H2O
9.5mm Peterlongo ..... 84.0g H2O
9.3x74R ..... 84.2g H2O
375 Taylor ..... 87.9g H2O

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/PETERLONGO-TARG-0.jpg

PETERLONGO-TARG-0.jpg

[mike ford]

That is very encouraging for fire forming loads. In the case volumes above, did you mean 9.3x74R or 9.3x64?
Mike

[buckstix]

That is very encouraging for fire forming loads. In the case volumes above, did you mean 9.3x74R or 9.3x64?
Mike

like it says .... 9.3x74R

these case measurements are taken from a chamber cast and measuring fired-formed cases.

overall length = 2.350"
base diameter = 0.512"
shoulder diameter = 0.495"
rim diameter = 0.475"
rim thickness = 0.050"
neck length = 0.335"
neck diameter = 0.405"