I bought an unknown - not sure what the caliber is - any suggestions?

[buckstix]

I bought an unknown - not sure what the caliber is - any suggestions?

Hello all,

When this one came up for auction last month I couldn't resist placing a bid, just to see high it would go.
Apparently my "watching bid" was too high, because I ended up as the winner. I sure hope it turns out to
be a 404 Jeffery as described.
However, I know the German metric designation for the 404J is 10.75x73. This was listed as 10.8x72.
So I'm not sure what the caliber might be. Any suggestions would be welcome.

The fabulous stock was a big attraction. Regardless, this looks to be a keeper. I can't wait to get it in hand.


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/imman-0.jpg

[Axel E]

The old German proofmarks, as used from 1912 to 1939, often confuse moderns, especially Americans. Most German proofhouses marked not part of the cartridge name nor the larger groove or bullet diameter, but the smaller bore/land diameter. It was measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plugs in .1 mm increments. Here a 10.8 mm plug passed the bore, but a 10.9 mm one did not. So the actual bore diameter may have been 10.89 mm. You have to add 2x the groove depth of about .1 to .2 mm to get an idea about the groove or bullet diameter.
So I think the 10.8 mm bore and 72mm case length point to the old 11.2x72 Schueler cartridge rather than the .404.

[buckstix]

The old German proofmarks, as used from 1912 to 1939, often confuse moderns, especially Americans. Most German proofhouses marked not part of the cartridge name nor the larger groove or bullet diameter, but the smaller bore/land diameter. It was measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plugs in .1 mm increments. Here a 10.8 mm plug passed the bore, but a 10.9 mm one did not. So the actual bore diameter may have been 10.89 mm. You have to add 2x the groove depth of about .1 to .2 mm to get an idea about the groove or bullet diameter.
So I think the 10.8 mm bore and 72mm case length point to the old 11.2x72 Schueler cartridge rather than the .404.

Hello Axel,

Once again, I thank you for the explanation. Although I would have preferred if it was a 404 Jeffery caliber, I will be satisfied with the rifle if its an 11.2x72 Schuler caliber. Fortunately since I have 2 other rifles in the Schuler caliber, I have lots of brass and bullets.

[yamoon]

Beautiful rifle, I wonder about recoil with that steel butt plate. Be curious to know the rifle weight.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello,

The rifle is 11.2x72 Schuler caliber. It weighs 9 pounds 15 ounces, with a 15" LOP. Here are the markings I found. I hope to know if this was an Oberndorf Commercial action / barrel to start with.

I talked to the man that did the complete restoration in December 2005. He is James Tucker, and he is a member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. This gun is far more spectacular in hand than any pictures can show. Tucker stocks start at about $5,500 plus the cost of the blank. In this case the blank was over $3,000. I am not sure what all the metalwork would have cost.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/IMMAN-markings-0.jpg

[mike ford]

buckstix,
I don't see anything to lead me to the conclusion that the rifle was based on a commercial action/barrel. It was proofed in Suhl in November of 1926. Meffert could have bought a commercial barreled action at that time, from Mauser Obendorf, but proofs would have been in their style. More importantly, eight years after WW1 ended, the world was "awash" with war surplus Mauser type actions and rifles at much less cost than commercial ones. Meffert had the "in house" ability to re-work one of these into whatever the customer needed/wanted. It is likely that this rifle started out as a military rifle made into a nice sporting rifle. I wouldn't be too disturbed that is not likely an original Mauser, the more recent work overshadows any additional value if it had been. As always, I may be mistaken.
Mike

[buckstix]

buckstix,
..... I wouldn't be too disturbed that is not likely an original Mauser, the more recent work overshadows any additional value if it had been. .....
Mike

Hello Mike, Not at all disturbed it not being a Commercial, I was just curious ... I can see a partial Krupp Lauf" marking peeking out from under the front scope mounting base, can you tell what the rest might be.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
More than likely the next word would be "Stahl"(steel), "Guss Stahl"(cast steel), or "Fluss Stahl"(fluid steel). Since I can't see it, this is an out and out guess.
Mike

[buckstix]

ok, thanks - by the way, there is a 513 stamped on the back of the mag box.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
I had looked for numbers on the back of the magazine box, but I didn't see a photo of that area. The last three numbers of the serial number are 513, but the numbers on an original Mauser mag box are generally the entire Mauser serial number (which is also generally found near the recoil lug, but absent here). The serial number stamped on the receiver ring is slightly out of alignment, leading me to believe it was "hand applied" by Meffert during the process of cleaning off prior military markings. I noted the numbers 513 also in the barrel channel of the stock, clearly applied by James Tucker. Process numbers were often added to parts to be able to keep the parts together for final assembly. The 513 on the mag box could have been added by Meffert for the same reason. Of course, this is also speculation.
Mike