Help with identification of this drilling, please?

[Joseph D]

Let me start with an apology for not trying more research before my request. I am clearing the first floor of my house to have hardwood floors installed and all of my reference material is not to be found. My brother recently acquired this beautiful drilling at auction and asked me to photograph the markings on the gun to ascertain correct rifle caliber and possibly identify the maker of this fine piece. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank You in advance, Joe IMG_6907.jpg IMG_6908.jpg IMG_6927.jpg IMG_6926.jpg

[mike ford]

Joe,
Your brother's drilling is chambered for 8x57IR, which was intended to use a .318" bullet. It was proofed for a 15-gram steel jacketed bullet. Since the bore (not bullet or groove) diameter is shown in mm, it was proofed after 1911, and since it is not dated it was proofed in Suhl before the mid 1920s. The 16 in a circle shows that, unless it was altered in the US, it has 16 ga 65mm (2 1/2- 2 9/16") chambers. The 17/1 is the bore diameter of the left barrel as expressed in gauge measurement. The right barrel may be the same diameter but it will have the same chamber length, Likewise, the crown W means the left barrel is choked, but the constriction is not shown. If the right barrel doesn't show a crown W, it is cylinder bore. The crown U is the mark for a "View" proof, which is basically a detailed inspection after definitive proof, including verification of dimensions. I can't make them out, but I'm sure it also has a crown S on both shotgun barrels, which means it was proofed for shot, instead of a single projectile. While I also can't make it out, the rifle barrel will have a crown G, which means it was proofed for a single projectile (bullet). If the gun doesn't have a maker's mark, it was made "for the trade", which just means it was made to be sold by some other retailer. You might find some small logo or other mark somewhere, that could ID the maker. Your brother may find 8x57IR ammo for sale, but if not, handloading it is pretty straight forward since .318" bullets are available and 8x57IRS cases will fit. If he wants the headstamp to be correct, it is a simple matter to strike out the S in IRS. I hope you find this useful.
Mike

[Joseph D]

Thank You very much, Mike!! Any idea what the H.S. might indicate? (Picture 2 behind forend lug on rifle barrel) Also, my brother says that the I is interchangeable with J in German so would the standard 8-57 JR be the same round as 8-57 IR? My Sauer drilling is marked 7,8 57 and the bullets that came with that one are 8-57 JR (and so marked on the rib). Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and time with us. I know that my 82 year old brother is enjoying this information immensely!

[mike ford]

Joe,
Yes, in old German the I looks like a J and 8X57IR is most often written as 8X57JR. The HS might be for the barrel maker, but there is no reliable listing of the ID of these workmen's touch marks.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

The following names are mere suggestions:

Heinrich Schilling, Rohrbohrer, Suhl (1912; 1924)
Hugo Schilling, Rohrmacher, Suhl (1912; 1924)
Heinrich Schnabel, Rohrmacher, Suhl (1912; 1924)
Heinrich Seidenzahl, Rohrmacher, Suhl (1912)

Hermann Schlegelmilch, Rohrmacher, Zella St. Blasii/Zella-Mehlis (1912; 1924)
Hugo Schl?tter, Br?nierer, Zella St. Blasii (1912)

and finally another, or possibly the same Hermann Schlegelmilch as the one in Zella St. Blasii/Zella-Mehlis, who maybe branched out to Suhl:
Hermann Schlegelmilch, Fahrrad- und Gewehrlauffabrik, Suhl (1924). I have no notation on him before 1924 but he may very well have been active before that year. There is at least one barrel marking occurring frequently which draws my attention in connection with bicycle factory. However, that marking is not present on the thread topic so that is for another discussion.

I am sure there were others with titles such as gunsmith/master gunsmith who fits the initials HS but I have not included them in my list. Whether my list is of any use or not may be debated but it is at least an effort in trying to put together some sort of register. With sources.

EDIT: included 1912 after herr Schl?tter.
EDIT again: Hermann Schlegelmilch https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/schlegelmilch/
Peter

[Joseph D]

Thank you immensely for your input, Mr. Algmule! I just got a chance to check on this thread as I was driving most of yesterday and very busy today. My photos of this gun don't do justice to the quality of the engraving on most parts of this gun. It is a quality of embellishment which seems to be done more precisely than most drillings I've seen. Also, The barrels are 26 3/4" which are a bit longer than what I have seen. I will try to get better pictures posted to better represent this gun.

[Thomasg]

Beautiful firearm!

[Joseph D]

Thank You! Sorry for the lapse in communication. Family responsibilities kept me busy for a good while. I had a chance to take some more pictures of the gun today as I was cleaning it and preparing for range time. We had overcast conditions outside so I took indoor pictures. I discovered a Capital G that I had not seen on the rifle barrel at the breach end of the right shotgun/rifle under rib. That made me curious so I started poring over the gun in search of a signature. I removed the butt plate and hit paydirt! There is pencil writing on the horn butt plate. Top line is gun serial #. Middle line appears to be Johann or John and bottom line looks like Gla or ??. I did not want to try to clean off any powder or dirt for fear of losing the pencil markings. I will attach pictures in hopes that someone may be able to recognize the name. TIA for any help. A few pictures will be just for appreciation of this lovely piece. IMG_6998.jpg IMG_7003 - Copy.jpg IMG_7002.jpg IMG_7009.jpg

[Joseph D]

IMG_7013.jpg IMG_7004.jpg I am just getting a feel for posting photographs. Going to try posting some large ones for detail.....

[mike ford]

Joseph D,
I suspect the signature on the butt plate it an owner rather than the maker. The G on the rifle barrel may be the barrel maker, but there is no listing of these workers touch marks and a positive ID now is not likely. We have German members that are much more familiar with German handwritten script. Maybe one of them will step in and let us all know what it says.

[Joseph D]

Thanks, Mike. I am hoping what I have found will mean something to one of our German members. The fit and finish of this gun are exquisite and it is hard for me to imagine such quality not bearing a maker's name but things were different in those days.