Nagel & Menz Stalking Rifle

[giggpowers@sbcglobal.net]

Single shot, hammer, octagon BBL, one standing rear leaf, double set triggers, pop up tang sight, light engraving, some gold inlay on barrel breech, tip open with lever under and parallel with forend, nice wood. Bore slugs to .572 chamber takes a 1.66" 28 ga brass shot shell. Not a Snider which is 24 ga and .586 respectively. Can find no reference for the cartridge. Has a choked rifled barrel making bullet choice a challenge. A quality made rifle in a baffeling caliber
Anyone have a clue what I have got???
Thanks
Gigg

[Axel E]

Many German hunting rifles of the 1860s – 70s used shortened shotgun shells with short, blunt greased lead bullets. Called "bore rifles" by the Brits. The 1904 DWM catalog still listed 28 ga brass cases “for rifle bullets” in lengths of 30.4 mm = 1.2” and 40.4 mm = 1.59”. Uttendoerfer offered 28 ga lead bullets for brass cases, with two grease grooves and a blunt , hemispherical nose, body diameter 14,5 mm = .571”, guiding/seating stop band 14.55 mm = .573", length 17.8 mm = .700, weght 27 g = 417 gr. Same 28 ga bullets for paper cases were 14.35 mm = .565”only.

[giggpowers@sbcglobal.net]

Axel
Most info I have gotten yet on my rifle. The first load I fabricated was .576 OS Minie (soft lead), 50 grs FFG, filler to base of bullet, SPG lube and Lrg Pistol primer (Magtech cases require it. Recoil was stiff, first shot near point of aim, subsequent rounds flyers. Conclusion, the thin minie bases were blowing out due to high pressure. Rechecked and found bore is choked. Have no idea why? Conclusion was a lighter shorter bullet, heavier base wall minie 400 gr, size .572, 40 gr FFG, filler to base and SPG. After seeing your info I am going to find the .575494 Lyman wad cutter and turm the base plug to create essentially a flat base bullet (noted chart shows some short hollow base) that would look much like you chart slugs at around 380 grs. Can' t thank you enough. When I get results I will post the results.
Gigg

[giggpowers@sbcglobal.net]

Anyone have more info on Nage l& Menz? When were they making guns? Bespoke only? My Bbl says Baden, was that where they were located? Collectability?
Thanks
Gigg

[Axel E]

The posh gunshop Nagel & Menz was in Baden – Baden (town Baden in the state Baden to distinguish it from the Badens in Austria and Switzerland), a world renowned spa and favorite resort of royalty and nobility before WW1, residence of many Russian and other European princes. Georg Nagel opened his shop at Langestr. 62 in 1840. Grandson? Carl Georg Nagel (1870 – 1923) was joined by Gottlieb Menz about 1890. From 1900 to 1915 they had a branch in then German Strasbourg, Alsace. They were titled “gunmakers to …” several Royals. N&M existed until the 1980s, finally named “Waffenhaus Baden”.
As Nagel & Menz held Heeren’s patent to that falling block rifle, many early Heeren rifles were signed by N&M, though they did not make them. As usual, they had nearly all “their” guns made by the Suhl, Liege and even Birmingham guntrade. All the Heeren rifles were made by Stephan Heym, Suhl for them, see “Waidmannsheil! # 50”.

[algmule]

Hello
The patents D.R.P. 36451 and D.R.P. 47402 both mention Strassburg.

D.R.P. 36451 (January 31, 1886) Firma Nagel & Menz in Baden-Baden und Strassburg i. Els. Hahn fuer Gewehre mit uebereinanderliegende Laeufen.

D.R.P. 47402 (December 6, 1888) Nagel & Menz in Strassburg i. E. und Baden-Baden
Werkzeug fuer Jaeger.

I have a mentioning listed under Waffen und Bestandtheile of Nagel & Menz, Gewehrfabrik, and a G. [ottlieb] Nagel sen [ior] from 1874 so I assume there was a junior as well later on.

EDIT: there's no mentioning of the senior Gottlieb Nagel being involved in Nagel & Menz. He is only listed under Waffen und Bestandtheile.

EDIT again: Georg, not Gottlieb, senior. Sorry, watching football and posting at the same time.

Peter

[Axel E]

The patents D.R.P. 36451 and D.R.P. 47402 both mention Strassburg.

D.R.P. 36451 (January 31, 1886) was for a hammer with a 2-position nose to strike either an upper or lower firing pin of drillings or over-unders.
D.R.P. 47402 (December 6, 1888) An early multitool incorporating knife, scissors, pliers, screw drivers, corkscrew, case extractor and so on. Forerunner of a Leatherman tool.

[algmule]

Hello
Some further info on Nagel & Menz.

In 1879 the "Adressbuch aller Laender der Erde der Kaufleute, Fabrikanten...." gives Nagel & Menz specialized in "Express-Buechsen".

Another patent with Nagel & Menz's name on. D.R.P. 147696 Abzuegseinrichtung zum abfeuern zweier Laeufe mittels eines Abzuges. Arthur Schuetzenberger und Nagel und Menz in in Strassburg i. E. (November 12, 1902
No mentioning of Baden-Baden. I assume, though, that N&M was/were still in Baden. Who this Arthur Schuetzenberger was I don't know.

Once I get access to my library I'll look for an (early?) ad and if there is anything on the business by the name Nagel & Menz.

Axel,
As you were helpful with translation of the two above patent titles I leave it to you for this one, as well. My wonky translation is Trigger system for firing two barrels with one trigger.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Another patent with Nagel & Menz's name on. D.R.P. 147696 Abzuegseinrichtung zum abfeuern zweier Laeufe mittels eines Abzuges. Arthur Schuetzenberger und Nagel und Menz in in Strassburg i. E. (November 12, 1902
No mentioning of Baden-Baden. I assume, though, that N&M was/were still in Baden.

Baden 1912:
Gottlieb Menz, Privat, Langestr. 56

Karl Nagel, Hofbuechsenmacher, Langestr. 56

Nagel & Menz, K. K. Hofbuechsenmacher, Sporthaus Langestr. 56

Karoline Nagel, Wwe (widow) Langestr. 56

(Viktoria Nagel, Philipp Wwe, Eckerlestr. 9)

Peter

[algmule]

Hello
Here's another patent. Adding to above mentioned D.R.P. 147696.

D.R.P. 152541 Abzuegseinrichtung zum abfeuern zweier Laeufe mit federbelasteten, seitlich verdrehbaren hinteren Stangenteilen. M?rz 10, 1903. Laengste Dauer: 11. November 1917.
Zusatz zum Patente 147696 vom 12. November 1902.
Arthur Schuetzenberger und Nagel & Menz in Strassburg i. E.

Too complicated for me to sort out. I am, however, surprised by the long period of validity. 24 years? I call on Axel.

I do have in the back of my mind they changed the period of validity for patents from 15 to 18 years around 1923. I will have to go back and re-read the rules for patents.

Also: I'm thinking of eating a German dictionary......

Peter

[Axel E]

D.R.P. 147696, 1902: A double – single trigger design, usable as a conventional double trigger by usung both front and rear trigger, but the front trigger may be used as a single trigger too to fire both barrels.
D.R.P. 152541, 1903: Improvement to the above single trigger patent. Introduced a swiging inertia block to prevent the usual involuntary pull of front trigger during recoil from firing the second barrel and making the gun “double”. Expired November 1917.
Both patents are not related in any way to the old patent for an adjustable hammer.
Nothing about an Arthur Schuetzenberger. Maybe an employee of Nagel & Menz?

[algmule]

Hello
Let's begin with Arthur Schuetzenberger. I don't believe he was an employee of Nagel & Menz. I believe he coughed up money for the patents with his name on, or perhaps he performed some legal role. I'm not versed in Strassburg's role in European history. France and Germany were at each other's throats for a long time until after WW 2 when they decided peace was more prosperous than war and together with a few other countries formed what eventually became the European Union and began making money out of peace. Anyway, Arthur Schuetzenberger is listed as Rentner from 1890 (maybe earlier) up until (and maybe after) the time of the patents with his name on. Address, Thomasstaden 4 (1902-04). Apparently, the Strassburg Schuetzenberger's was a famed name. Or so I like to think, but fair warning, my French is even worse than my German.

As for N&M: I don't know when they turned up in Strassburg. In 1890 the business was there for sure, though. On address Judengasse 1 as Buechsenmacher, Hoflieferanten. On the same address we find Karl Nagel, Buechsenmacher. An ad from the same year gives the business was K. Schneider's Nachfolger. Around the time of the patents with Schuetzenberger's name on the business is on the address Muenstergasse 23. Karl Nagel, Buechsenmacher, is residing on Judengasse 1. There were lots of Nagel's in Strassburg around 1900-05.

Ad from 1890
chrome_screenshot_1669641617978.png chrome_screenshot_1669641707898.png
Ad from 1902
chrome_screenshot_1669638483229.png

I apologize for image quality and spelling.

Also: Axel
Thanks for translating and sorting out the technical.

EDIT: the ad from 1890 says N&M was awarded "Diplom 1. Classe det Freiburger Gewerbe-Ausstellung". No year given for the Ausstellung.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello
I correct myself. E. not K. Schneider
chrome_screenshot_1669651409212.png The business that N&M took over in Strassburg was F. E. Schneider, Waffenfabrik, owner Franz Eugen Schneider, Luxhofgasse 1. When did the takeover happen? Either in 1883 or 1884. In 1885 N&M is/are an established business in Strassburg. Muenstergasse 23. Both Gottlieb Menz, Buechsenmacher and Karl Nagel, Buechsenmacher, are residing at No. 23. A couple of years on N&M is/are still at No. 23 but the pair of Buechsenmachers are residing at Judengasse 1. They are now "Hoflieferanten Sr. K. H. des Grossherzogs von Baden. In 1898 an ad from N&M claims they are peddling "Drillinge eigener Patente. Construction".

Arthur Schuetzenberger: I still haven't worked out his role. From 1882 and onwards he is listed as Rentner. There was a Schuetzenberger brewery in Strassburg but if he had anything to do with it I don't know.

Strassburg was (and is) bilingual - French and German - and, consequently, some N&M ads were bilingual, too. Come to think of it, today Strassburg is probably multilingual.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

In 1898 an ad from N&M claims they are peddling "Drillinge eigener Patente. Construction".

chrome_screenshot_1669666652300.png

D.R.P. 36451

AlsoX2: when I write I'm not versed in Strassburg's role in European history I mean I'm not versed in any legal procedures - if there were any - as Strassburg is bang in the middle between Germany and France. Maybe that's why Schuetzenberger was involved. I assume there has been a lot of legal wrangling in Strassburg in more recent times.

As I am the resident shotgun conversion fanatic, one of the above posted ads caught my attention - "Repetirgewehre f.(uer) Schrot" [und Kugel.].


Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Anyone have more info on Nage l& Menz? When were they making guns? Bespoke only? My Bbl says Baden, was that where they were located?

In 1910 the N&M business in Strassburg was taken over by Buechsenmacher Johann Zwermann. Four years later war broke out in Europe. I have no information N&M returned to Strassburg after WW1.

"Zwermann, Johann, vorm.[als] Nagel & Menz, Muenstergasse 23.“

Now you are welcome to post further images of your gun.

Also, and off-topic: I did find another one we were looking for some time ago. A. Hoffer-Frey (sometimes Hofer-Frey), Buechsenmacher, Schlossergasse 12, Strassburg. When I can find time I'll see if I can update that thread.

Peter