Otto Bock 3-barrel rifle - 16ga / 8x58r Sauer / 30-30 Win - Need help with markings

[buckstix]

Hello All,

I just bought a 3-barrel rifle and need help with determining what the markings mean. I don't yet have the gun in hand, but found this information from the auction and an article in the 2015 Winter issue of the Double Gun Journal. Between the text reference to what is found on the top of the frame, and the picture of the markings, can you help to identify what they mean?


OTTO-6.jpg



OTTO-00.jpg



OTTO-1.jpg

OTTO-2.jpg OTTO-4.jpg

[algmule]

Hello

Maybe the "protruding selector switch" and the number 61920 belongs together? If so, I would have expected D.R.G.M. 61920. Perhaps "G.M. Sch. No. 61920" is for Gebrauchmuster Schutz No. 61920? If it is I don't know to whom it belonged but should it happen to be it's most likely for the selector.

Yes, the above is guesswork.

Interesting piece. Thanks for posting.

Peter

[Axel E]

Some clear, legible photos of the proof- and other marks under the barrel may give more information on the origin and fate of this unusual drilling..
A DRGM 61920 would date to 1896, a bit early for such a drilling. Besides, it is not listed among the gun-related DRGMs in the contemporary "Der Waffenschmied" and would have expired by 1902. From the placement I suspect it to be an inventory number of a forgotten collection.
BTW, there were not "few royalty appointed gunmakers". As there were 5 royal and many more princely courts in Germany pre-WW1, even small country gunsmithes could hardly avoid being titled "Hofbuechsenmacher" or "Hoflieferant". Otto Bock, Berlin, is credited with the invention of the 9.3x62 cartridge, but he got the title not for his gunmaking, but for the large taxidermy side of his business. He had most of his guns made by the Suhl guntrade, as usual.

[buckstix]

Hello,

I'll take a lot of detailed photos when I get the gun in hand.

[algmule]

Hello

I'm not saying it is, I am only suggesting. The selector switch may be the one patented by Wilhelm Collath in Firma Teschner & Co. D.R.P. 96285, applied for on 27. April 1897, and if 15 years was the time a patent was valid it would have expired around 1912. The powder marking puts the Drilling in the period up to around 1912. So, if I'm guessing correctly the Drilling was manufactured in the period between 1897-1912. I'd say closer to around 1912 as it wears a Nitro-proof. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. Just trying to be helpful.

N?tas1.JPG

EDIT: it was possible to get a Nitro-test earlier than around 1912.

Peter

[buckstix]

Some clear, legible photos of the proof- and other marks under the barrel may give more information on the origin and fate of this unusual drilling..
A DRGM 61920 would date to 1896, a bit early for such a drilling. Besides, it is not listed among the gun-related DRGMs in the contemporary "Der Waffenschmied" and would have expired by 1902. From the placement I suspect it to be an inventory number of a forgotten collection.
BTW, there were not "few royalty appointed gunmakers". As there were 5 royal and many more princely courts in Germany pre-WW1, even small country gunsmithes could hardly avoid being titled "Hofbuechsenmacher" or "Hoflieferant". Otto Bock, Berlin, is credited with the invention of the 9.3x62 cartridge, but he got the title not for his gunmaking, but for the large taxidermy side of his business. He had most of his guns made by the Suhl guntrade, as usual.

Hello Axel E,

I finally have the gun in hand and have shown a series of photos that show the different marks I found. Although it was difficult to show the 30-30W markings because of the glare, the mark appears to be an original stamp in a "full blue" background with no signs of an old mark being removed.otto-a.jpg

[buckstix]

... continued

[buckstix]

continued ....
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image_5575.jpg

[mike ford]

buckstix,
I'm sorry but I don't believe the 30-30 is an original mark, it is in an entirely different font. Also, it is in a different format than the marking for bore( not groove or bullet) diameter. At first, the bore diameter was marked in gauge measurement, and around 1911-12 this changed to bore diameter being marked in mm and the case length, also in mm was shown next to the bore. Since the top right barrel is marked only with bore diameter, I suspect it was proofed during the transition to the improved system. The bore diameter of 7.8 mm, would "fit" 8x57 IR, 8x58 R S&S, 8x57R/360, and other less likely cartridges( proof load would not fit 8x57IR, however). A nominal bore diameter of 7.8 does not fit 30-30, which would have likely been marked 7.6. I believe the bore diameter proof mark for the bottom barrel was ground off or obscured by the 30-30 marking. The barrels were re-blued( likely in the US) , as evidenced by the barrel "flats" and the sides of the underlugs, as well as the extractor/ chamber end of the barrels being blued rather than "bright". In my considered opinion, it will be absolutely necessary to "slug" the rifle barrels and make chamber casts, in order to positively ID the nominal caliber of each barrel. I suspect ( with no proof), that both rifle barrels are chambered for the same cartridge, which would make the gun a double rifle drilling. I would be curious to see if a 30-30 rim would fit one or both chamber's rim recess.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,

Interesting results of casts of the muzzles and the chambers ..... bottom barrel perhaps originally an 8.15x46R - re-chambered to 30-30 ? ? Or some other original Sauer cartridge - that was re-chambered to 30-30wW ? ?

It will be interesting to see how the 30-30 barrel shoots since the bore is about .007" oversize.

Any guess as to what the "HF" in the circle is? - Perhaps the one that re-chambered the bottom barrel?

otto-m.jpg

[mike ford]

buckstix,
I agree the .324 barrel was and is 8x58R S&S. The .315 barrel was seemingly rechambered from 8.15 x46 as you believe. By it being marked 30-30 I believe that was intended, rather than 32 Win. Special, which some were rechambered to. I have a KLB that was rechambered to 32 WS using a 30-30 chamber reamer , then a 32 neck reamer to fit one makers ammo, and used with other ammo that was longer creating damaging pressure. You should only use ammo fitting the chamber. As to the 16 ga barrel, I couldn't make out the proof marks. If it shows a crown S , it was intended for shot. If it was intended for a single projectile( bullet), it should show a crown G. If it has a crown W, It was a choked barrel. If it has a crown S together with a crown G, I believe it was rifled later. If it was rifled when proofed, it should have a crown with intertwined S and W. If it is so marked, it is the first one I have seen.
Mike

[Axel E]

About a DRGM 61920 first: As I wrote, I did not find such a gun related design in the contemporary Waffenschmied. But there may have been a printing error, as there was a DRGM 61926 listed in the Waffenzeitung, Suhl, August 1896. Issued to Scchmidt & Habermann, Suhl, it covered a drilling barrel selector slide activated by a sidelever. As this fits your drilling, I now believe your drilling was made for Otto Bock by Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl. The S&H factory was predominantly a “gunmaker to the trade”. Their guns were most often found with the addresses of other gunshops, even name ones. F.i. all the famous “Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, Hochleistungsb?chse” rigles were indeed made by them and post-WW1 have their tiny esha trademark in a hidden place.
Now to the lower rifle barrel: I agree with Mike.That 30.30w marking and the HF stamp are certainly not pre-WW2 German. In two of your photos I see a very faint line around the barrel, ahead of the proofmarks and directly behind the foreend hanger. So I think the barrel assembly was soldered apart, the worn out barrel cut off, a new .30-30 barrel sleeved into the stub, the ribs resoldered and the assembly rust blued again. Myself, I have an pre-WW1 drilling with two of the three barrels sleeved in this way. See “Waidmannsheil # 54, p.25” of 7 years ago. The seams are very hard to detect. Most German trained master gunsmithes should be able to do such a job. As your drilling was not duly reproofed, I would look for an American HF.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Is you know, I almost always defer to your superior knowledge in these matters and I am very familiar with the procedure you described( see my article in the Waffenschmied "Drillings" about rebuilding my Meffert Drilling). I'm sorry but if you look on other photos, I think you will see that the "faint line" is the base of the forearm hangar. When a new barrel is sleeved in, the old one is typically cut off close to the barrel flats to allow the largest diameter possible for the new barrel. Also if it had been re-barreled in the US the barrel would most likely have had a .308" groove diameter ( a surplus Springfield barrel would likely have been used).The HF in a circle could very well be from a US source, but I don't recognize it.
Mike

[Axel E]

When a new barrel is sleeved in, the old one is typically cut off close to the barrel flats to allow the largest diameter possible for the new barrel.

Not always. On my drilling the barrel was cut about 1” ahead of the barrel flats.
I mistrust buckstix’ bore measurements. Not only his .315” for the .30-30 barrel appears excessive, but .324” for the 8x58R barrel too. I would expect .316” to .318” as maximum for a pre-WW1 8x58R S&S barrel.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I won't argue about your drilling's barrel, it is yours and I have never seen it so your description must be right. As far as .315 being too large for 30-30, that is absolutely true, but if it was re-chambered from 8.15x 46R it would be one of the diameters often seen. What are your thoughts about the rifled 16 ga. barrel? I couldn't make out the proof marks and buckstix hasn't described them yet.
Mike