An Eduard Kettner 16ga SxS wtih Belgian AND German Proofs

[offhand35]

This gun was advertised by the seller ( a big box store) as a German "Friedrich Krupp" 16ga SxS. I took a chance on it, and almost sent it back when in my hands because I saw Belgian proofs on the barrels. However, when shining a flashlight on the marks I also saw German proofs of the Crown/S and Crown/U and what may possibly be an eagle surrounded by a sheaf of feathers. There were also some additional markings on the tops of the barrels that I could not make out until I got it home. The faint markings on the barrel tops read "Eduard Kettner" on the left, and Koln a./Rh on the right. Over each chamber of each barrel is indeed the marking: "Special Gewehr-Lauf Stahl Fried Krupp, ESSEN, which had led the seller to believe this to be a Krupp gun.
I took some photos and sat down with my copy of "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks", by Gerhard Wirnsberger translated to English by R.A. Steindler.

The Belgian proofs and choke markings fit the period between Oct. 4, 1898 to June 23, 1924.
Does the presence of the Crown/S and Crown/U plus what may be an Eagle mark also indicate that that barrels were brought in o be put on a German built gun (?) Or is the whole gun Belgian?

From what I have been able to find, Eduard Kettner was a sporting goods dealer, not a gun maker, so he probably just put his name and city on the barrels. His mark does not approach the quality or depth of the markings on this gun, though it may have been buffed out a little for a re-black somewhere along the way.

here is no German NITRO mark on the barrels. I wonder if the Belgian marks demonstrate Nitro proofing. I may have to go elsewhere to ask that.


Overall I am pleased with the gun, but it does have one issue where the safety works only for the right barrel. The left side can fire with the safety on . I have found someone who may be able to correct this, but I will have to contact them and send it out.

DSCF1840.JPG DSCF1842.JPG DSCF1841.JPG DSCF1846.JPG

[offhand35]

The last photo above shows the barrel flat markings A few more photos showing the barrel markings and receiver engraving.
DSCF1849.JPG DSCF1851.JPG DSCF1874.JPG DSCF1876.JPG

[algmule]

Hello

Running the risk of confusing matters and not being of much help, I post the following. Axel, you are welcome to contribute a translation if you are not busy. Better you than me. Also: any spelling mistakes in the below German text are down to me. There must have been some later spelling reform in Germany when the h in "gleichwerthig" disappeared.

Reichs-Gesetzblatt
Nr 19
Inhalt: Bekanntmachung, betreffend die Anerkennung ausl?ndischer Pr?fungszeichen f?r Handfeuerwaffen im Deutschen Reiche. S. 275
(Nr. 2573.) Bekanntmachung, betreffenddie Anerkennung ausl?ndischer Pr?fungszeichen f?r Handfeuerwaffen im Deutschen Reiche. S. 275. Vom 26. April 1899.
Auf Grund des ?. 6 Abs. 2 des Gesetzes, betreffend die Pr?fung der L?ufe und Verschl?sse der Handfeuerwaffen, vom 19. Mai 1891 (Reichs-Gesetzbl. S. 109) hat der Bundesrath folgende Beschl?sse gefa?t:
1. Die durch die K?niglich belgische Verordnung vom 4. Oktober 1898 (Moniteur belge No. 279) vorgeschriebenen Pr?fungszeichen der Probirbank f?r Handfeuerwaffen zu L?ttich werden als den deutschen Pr?fungszeichen gleichwerhtig anerkannt, insoweit die nachstehend aufgef?hrten Handfeuerwaffen die dabei angegebenen Pr?fungszeichen tragen:

Then follow the proof markings that were in use in Belgium from October 4, 1898. I don’t know if German proof was accepted in Belgium but I assume they were.

The business of Eduard Kettner K?ln (and Suhl) did peddle a fair number of Belgian guns.

1900EduardKettnerad.JPG

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Here's a Google Translate version of the German text in my post above. It may not be perfect but it'll give you an idea of what it's about.

Reichs-Gesetzblatt
No. 19
Content: Announcement regarding the recognition of foreign test marks for handguns in the German Empire. p. 275
(No. 2573.) Announcement concerning the recognition of foreign test marks for handguns in the German Empire. p. 275. From April 26, 1899
On the basis of ?. 6 section. 2 of the law on the testing of the barrels and breeches of handguns, dated May 19, 1891 (Reichs-Gesetzbl. P. 109), the Federal Council passed the following resolutions:
1. The test marks of the proof facility for handguns in Li?ge prescribed by the Royal Belgian Ordinance of October 4, 1898 (Moniteur belge No. 279) are recognized as equivalent to the German test marks, insofar as the handguns listed below bear the test marks indicated:

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

EDIT: maybe the tubes went through the first test in Germany and after they were knit/ted into a barrel set the set was sent to Belgium to be part of the finished gun and finally proofed there. I assume the tubes may also have been knit/ted together in Belgium.

Peter

[offhand35]

Peter, thank you for your additional research to shed more light on the possible history of this gun! The gun does demonstrate the effort Eduard Kettner made to possibly reduce costs for some buyers and enable them to purchase a finer gun than they otherwise might not have been able to afford (and to also sell more guns, of course!).

[algmule]

Hello

Belgian proofs again. Google Translate is responsible for the translation and it may not be perfect but again you’ll get what it’s about. I’m responsible for the highlighting of the dates and any spelling mistakes. Anything within square brackets is not part of the qoute. It's there to clarify.

Bekanntmachung, betreffend die Anerkennung ausl?ndischer Pr?fungszeichen f?r Handfeuerwaffen im Deutschen Reich. Centralblatt f?r das Deutsche Reich. S. 20.
Auf Grund des ? 6 Abs. 2 des Gesetzes vom 19. Mai 1891, betreffend die Pr?fung der L?ufe und Verschl?sse der Handfeuerwaffen (Reichs-Gesetzblatt S. 109), hat der Bundesrath in seiner Sitzung vom 25. Januar d. J [1894]. beschlossen, die durch die K?niglich belgische Verordnung vom 11. Juli 1893 (Moniteur belge No. 203 bis 204) vorgeschriebenen Pr?fungszeichen der Probirbank f?r Handfeuerwaffen zu L?ttich als den deutschen
Pr?fungszeichen gleichwertig anzuerkennen, wenn gestempelt sind:
Then follow the proofmarks that were in use in Liege between 11 July 1893 and 4 October 1898.
Berlin der 1. Februar 1894.
Der Reichskanzler.
In Vertretung: v. Boetticher.

Announcement regarding the recognition of foreign test marks for handguns in the German Reich. Centralblatt for the German Empire. p. 20.
On the basis of ? 6 section 2 of the law of May 19, 1891, pertaining to the testing of the barrels and breeches of handguns (Reichs-Gesetzblatt p. 109), the Federal Council decided in its session on January 25 of this year [1894] that the Royal Belgian ordinance of July 11, 1893 (Moniteur belge No. 203 to 204) to recognize the test marks of the Probirbank for handguns in Li?ge as equivalent to the German test marks, if the following are stamped:
Berlin, February 1, 1894.
The Chancellor.
Representing: von Boetticher.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

If, as you wrote, there is a crown U on the thing it must have been proofed in final state in Germany. I don't see a crown U, sorry, but I trust your eyes.

The Belgian proof marks on it are post 4 October, 1898.

The company Eduard Kettner had an "outlet" in Danzig.

1906EduardKettnerDanzigAddress.JPG
"Eduard Kettner Gewehrfabrik C?ln a. Rh. - Reitbahn 4. Telephone No. 1992. Bevollm?chtiger [authorized representative] Hauptmann a. D. Schmidt." Must have been a short lived enterprise, though. Not listed in Danzig in 1905. Listed for the last time in the city records in 1907. I have several Eduard Kettner ads from 1906 where the Danzig address is present. Nothing mentioned in any ads from 1905 or 1907 in my library.

I have a mentioning of German manufacturers and dealers sending their wares to be proofed in Belgium when exporting to Austria as Belgian proofs were accepted there. The Austrians put a stop to this sometime in 1911 (maybe 1 June, can't remember) and declared the Austrian third proof was required on guns coming in even if fully proofed in some other country. This does not, however, explain the (German) crown U nor the Belgian proofs being present on the gun. I can see no proof mark for a reproof.

Also: I take full responsibility and apologize for not having read the OP's first post properly. Sorry.

EDIT: last mentioning of the Eduard Kettner company having a "Gewehrfabrik" in L?ttich/Li?ge that I have been able to find is from 1905. Others may have information pointing to a later date.

Late EDIT: put the Belgian proofs being accepted in Austria until 1911 on hold. Various sources conflict.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

I went through the Edard Kettner ads I have in my library and found the following

1897EduardKettnerad.JPG

No German and Belgian proof marks but English and German proof marks on the same barrel(s). Ad from early 1897. Maybe English proofs were not accepted in Germany and guns needed to be proofed again if they were to be sold in Germany. I know the company Eduard Kettner peddled Belgian guns but have never come across any information that the company sold English guns. The company, for all I know, may very well have peddled English wares. The ad is from a Prague publication which I assume isn't much help.

Sorry for off-topic.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

[t]here is no German NITRO mark on the barrels. I wonder if the Belgian marks demonstrate Nitro proofing. I may have to go elsewhere to ask that.
[/ATTACH]

The below is from the Reichs-Gesetzblatt Nr 19 (Nr. 2573). In this document I can’t find any mentioning of any “Nitro-proof”. Your shotgun falls under item/point 7 (see below images) if I’ve understood the proof marks correctly. I don’t believe the crown S is a German crown S but a Belgian controller’s mark. Could you please post an image of the crown U. I can see traces of what MIGHT be a German “eagle”. I don’t know but I believe the tubes went through the German first test and then went through the full Belgian proof, but with no Nitro-proofing.

y.JPG

yyy.JPG

Here’s how the document ends:

II. F?r die W?hrend der G?ltigkeit der K?niglich belgischen Verordnung vom 11. Juli 1893 (Moniteur belge No. 203-204) gepr?ften Handfeuerwaffen bleibt die Bekanntmachung vom 1. Februar 1894 (Central-Blatt f?r das Deutsche Reich S. 20) mit der Ma?gabe in Kraft, da? deren Bestimmungen unter Ziffer 1 bis 6 auch auf solche Jagdgewehre Anwendung finden, welche nicht Jagdflinten sind, und da? die Hinterlader-Jagdgewehre (Ziffer 2, 4, 5, 6) nur auf dem Verschlu?haken und auf dem Verschlusse, nicht dagegen auf dem Laufe mit dem Zeichen (Perron) gestempelt sein m?ssen.

Berlin, den 26. April 1899.
Der Stellvertreter des Reichskanzlers.
Graf von Posadowsky.

Here?s a rather poor Google Translate version:

For small arms tested during the validity of the Royal Belgian Ordinance of July 11, 1893 (Moniteur belge No. 203-204), the notice of February 1, 1894 (Central-Blatt f?r das Deutsche Reich p. 20) remains in force with the proviso that their provisions under numbers 1 to 6 also apply to hunting rifles that are not hunting rifles, and that breech-loading hunting rifles (numbers 2, 4, 5, 6) only on the breech block and on the breech, not on the Walk must be stamped with the sign (platform).

Anyone having any issues with the Google Translate translation. Feel free to work on it yourself.

EDIT: the red underlining is from the soft ware programme Word. Images within images are "borrowed" from the Internet/Web

Peter

[DWM431M]

Hello, I have another version:
At that time, Sauer & Sohn was the only company that could manufacture barrels with Krupp 3-ring special rifle barrel steel, because they had the exclusive right to market them.
So the barrels are made in the white in Suhl, and the gun is made in belgium

[algmule]

QUOTE=DWM431M;n29722]Hello, I have another version:
At that time, Sauer & Sohn was the only company that could manufacture barrels with Krupp 3-ring special rifle barrel steel, because they had the exclusive right to market them.
So the barrels are made in the white in Suhl, and the gun is made in belgium[/QUOTE]

Hello

That's an excellent version only it would depend on there being a crown U or not. Wouldn't it? I still can't see any marking crown U on the thing but the OP wrote he could see one. Let's hope he returns and shines light on there being a crown U or not. I would like to think a crown U was a marking for view proof of an entire gun. I could, of course, be wrong.

The steel marking on the barrel set is the one that JPS&S used in early ads pronouncing they had exclusive right to the steel. I suppose later on there were variants - in appearance - of the marking "Special Gewehrlauf-Stahl Friedr. Krupp Essen. There were more than one three-ringed steel sort from Krupp but I don't know when they were introduced/got the three-ringed marking. Below is a snippet from a JPS&S ad (Dutch publication, 1895) where the company issued a warning that they had exclusive right to the authentic "Kruppschem Specialgewehrlauf-Stahl".

Gl?fsallan.JPG

Apparently there were - according to JPS&S - other Specialstahl-Rohre floating around, hence their warning. Below is a snippet of a Krupp ad from 1897 that mentions two trade marks (WRONG DATE, SORRY. AD FROM A 1907 PUBLICATION. Ad has the date 30 December 1906)

Gl?fsallan-2.JPG

Yes, I agree the barrel set was probably manufactured by JPS&S but what's bothering me is the OP mentioned he could see a crown U on the thing.

Also: additional information. an ad from 1934 shows three out of the four Krupp barrel steels marked as three-ringed. I'm still looking for a lost 1928 ad where only two of them were advertized as three-ringed steel. If JPS&S had exclusive right to more than the three-ringed "Special Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl Friedr. Krupp Essen" has been debated elsewhere. I welcome any information on this topic.

EDIT: 1927:
Special-Gewehrlaufstahl (three-ringed) Fried. Krupp A.G. Essen
(bullet marking) Krupp-Lauf (bullet marking)
Nirosta (three-ringed) Fried. Krupp A.G. Essen
(bullet marking) Krupp Inerso-Lauf (bullet marking)

1934:
(bullet marking) Laufstahl (bullet marking)
Special-Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl (three-ringed) Fried. Krupp A.G. Essen
(three-ringed) Krupp-Inerso-Laufstahl (three-ringed)
Fried. Krupp (three-ringed) A.G. Essen Nirosta

Maybe it's a grenade marking and not a bullet marking but hopefully you get it. Also, seems the ad I was looking for was from 1927. I had it in my mind it was from 1928. Well, I've got terribly poor memory........

EDIT again: the below is from the above mentioned 1907 Krupp ad

Wer widerrechtlich L?ufe mit unserum Namen oder einem unserer Warenzeichen versieht, macht sich strafbar nach Absatz 14 des Gesetzes zum Schutze der Warenzeichnungen vom 12. Mai 1894.

Google Translate gives the following

Anyone who unlawfully labels runs with our name or one of our trademarks is liable to prosecution under paragraph 14 of the law for the protection of trademarks of May 12, 1894.

Also: I replaced a paragraph sign with the word Absatz in the above qoutation because the forum does not accept such a sign.

Peter

[ellenbr]

Yes, Kettner sourced the tubeset from Sauer per the Sauer process marks. Kettner cobbled a gesteck together & sent it to Liege(site doesn't support all characters) to have it completed by cheaper labour by the Liege mechanics.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

[algmule]

Hello

Should have noticed it but did miss it.

Snyltbaggen.JPG

Still the mysterious crown U to explain. If there is one?

Peter

[ellenbr]

Good Eye Peter & you all but had the full picture. That is one of the Sauer Process Marks: The Wildmann w/ the staff. It is coupled with the stylized Ss. Kettner & Sauer were very chummy & he could get quality components easy, then send the gesteck to Liege for cheaper labour, where he could pad is pocket nicely. All about the Benjamins as usual.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse