Seeking identifying Schuetzen caliber and maybe maker.

[Wolfgang]

Here is a rifle I just got. The caliber as well as the maker is unknown to me (pic of the entire rifle is in my forum introduction)

Barrel markings from under the handguard:
most left is the serial number also found on other parts of the gun - most right I think is the date Dec 1905 (but I would like to get an experts opinion on that)
The number under BGU I read as 527, which I can not make sense off (it is not 459 which would be 5.6mm or .22 )
IMG_7048.JPG

On the side of the barrel is this:
IMG_7081.JPG

What I found out about the chamber:
It nicely chambers a 22 short or 22 long. A 22 LR does not full fit into the chamber but it gets pushed in (as in breech seated into the rifling) when closing the action (see pic below)
IMG_7057.JPG

Results I got from shooting .22 ammo / slugging the barrel:
The barrel looked bright and shiny, almost like new, and after measuring the barrel I felt comfortable shooting a CCI CB short (710 FPS), which got stuck about 10cm before it exits the muzzle, the bullet was easily pushed out with less effort it usually takes to push a cleaning brush through a barrel. The stuck bullet is sown on the very right, it measures 5.52mm in diameter (before shooting it was 5.7mm)
Next I tried a CCI .22 CB long (also 710 FPS), which also got stuck at about the same distance from the muzzle. Resulting bullet is shown in the middle, which measured the same 5.52mm.
Then I tried the "breach seating" a .22 LR through closing the action. Result is shown on the left (you can barely see the riffling marks on the first ring)
Then I got brave (or foolish) and shot the 22 LR (1200 FPS), which worked just fine.
IMG_7069.JPG

Now the questions:
I am wondering what the barrel markings indicate !?!?!
Is it save to shoot a 22 LR, or maybe a regular short or long (other than CB) ???
I was hoping I can use this as an indoor training shooter with 22 CB, but that's obviously not happening. What are other peoples experience with shooting 22 CB with long barreled riffles ???
This is the longest 22 (if it actually is that) I own by far. AND I have heard that 22 CB ammo looses it's energy really fast in long barrels.

[algmule]

Hello

Wolfgang.jpg0,2 gram Neues Gewehrpulver M/71
1,8 gram lead
One, or maybe both, of the other numbers is probably a serial number.

EDIT: the table/chart is a shortening of the 1895 amendment to the 1891 proof law which was set into effect on 1 April 1893.

Peter

[mike ford]

Wolfgang,
Peter's information is correct, as is usual for him. I don't think the 1205 is the date. The date ,applied by the proof house, would typically be directly under the proof marks and would usually have a , between the 2 and 0( sometimes hard to see). The other numbers are likely the manufacture's assembly numbers ( to keep the parts together). I believe your rifle is chambered for 22 Long , although if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. You can use either Long or Short ammo, likely intended for "Standard Velocity". The rifle is seemingly strong enough for "High Velocity", even Long Rifle. The rifling twist may not be fast enough stabilize the 40 grain Long rifle bullet correctly. The 527 is the bore( not groove or bullet ) diameter.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Mike Ford,
I'm not so sure the proof loads in the table/chart are the ones that Wolfgang's rifle went through, but then again I wouldn't know. The prescribed "service load" is certainly not the same. I only posted the shortened chart to clear up the "527" bother.

Peter

[Axel E]

The load info given with the old German proofmarks is not the proof load, but the service load the gun is proofed for to use. The bullet weight of 1.8 gramm = 28 gr points to the old .22 long. As the bore/land diameter is given with the old gauge number 527 = 5.25 – 5.50 mm, the rifle was proofed 1893 – 1911. More photos of the action may give a hint to the maker.

[mike ford]

The load on the chart wasn't the one I went by, instead I considered the one marked on the rifle. Wolfgang wondered about the 527, because he expected it to be 459. The 459 is more common, but 527 is common enough to not be surprising.

[Wolfgang]

Thank you so much Peter, Mike, and Axel for confirming that this is indeed a rifle designed for .22 long / short !!!

I will get some regular .22 long and test how it performs - I do like the idea of "breech seating" a .22 LR and will also play with that as well and check the accuracy, although the twist rate may not be right for the heavier LR bullet ...

Two more follow-up questions:

1. What is Neues Gewehrpulver M/71 ??? I do understand the words, but is that black powder or smokeless ? How would I translate that into a modern specification like FPS which is typically used in modern ammo?
2. Is the load info on the side of the barrel more like a "the rifle is safe to shoot with that", or is it like "the rifle performs best with that" ?

I will post a few more pictures of the action ....

[Wolfgang]

Below are more pictures off the rifle, which might help identifying the maker or the region it was made. The only other information I got from the seller was that the rifle was given to him by a friend whose father supposedly took this (and others) from from a hunting lodge owned by Erwin Rommel, but there is no supporting evidence of that. However it is likely a "spoils of WWII bring back" by a US soldier. Please let me know what other shots might be helpful...

The stock is connected to the receiver through a long rod / screw and only one tang screw on the bottom.
IMG_7047.JPG

Here are more picture off the action:
IMG_7083.JPGIMG_7084.JPG
this is the back of the falling block
IMG_7085.JPG
And this is the only other marking I found (besides the barrel markings and the serial number on each individual part). This is on the front of the falling block lever:
IMG_7086.JPG

[algmule]

Hello

According to a gentleman calling himself "sauerfan" the powder is a Schwarzpulver (black powder)
https://www.militaria-fundforum.de/f...tole/&pageNo=4
(scroll down in the link).

Sorry, I can't be of much more help than that. What the "spezielle" refers to I don't know.

Peter

[mike ford]

It means " New Rifle Powder M/ 71`", with M/71 being the powder used in the "New" 11.15x60R cartridge for the Mod. 1871 Mauser, and as stated by "sauerfan" is a blackpowder. The rifle was proofed to fire the load shown, what it performs best with will be for you to determine by trying different makes/types. The rifle looks like one of the "Ideal" actions that Axel has written extensively about. The turtle mark on the lever looks familiar to me and I'm sure Axel will recognize it and who it represents.
Mike

[Wolfgang]

I think I found out who the maker is, in a book I just got, Alte Scheibenwaffen, in Vol 2 on page 316 is this:
IMG_7099.JPG
My breechblock also ascends vertically, and I have the same extractor as shown in Fig 2

On page 317 is a photo of a breechblock that looks just like mine, except mine has a dovetailed opening which reveals that it likely was upgraded (either in the factor or later) from the v-shaped mainspring (as shown in the drawing from the Will catalog below) to a coil mainspring. You can still see the pin that was holding the v-shaped spring on mine. The breechblock pictured in the book does not have this pin. So mine is some kind of transitional version or was upgraded later.
IMG_7101.JPG



From all that I conclude: This is either an original System Will 1908, or based on Will's design and made by somebody else.

What do the experts think ??? I am still wondering what the turtle mark (as Mike Ford called it) on the lever might reveal ???

Does anybody have a System Will and can confirm my conclusions ???

[mike ford]

Wolfgang,
Check out Axel's comments regarding Oskar Will's rifles in the thread " System Nimrod" by "Yamoon" in the forum "Gun and Proof Marks" below.
Mike

[Wolfgang]

Thanks Mike, what I am learning is that Oskar Will's design was copied by other makers, and it is hard to say for sure who made my rifle. Especially since there are no other marks on the rifle.
What other books are recommended besides Alte Scheibenwaffen to learn more about Schuetzen rifles ? Axel mentions Maretsch in the Nimrod thread - is that a German book ? Anybody has more info on that ?

[Axel E]

Axel mentions Maretsch in the Nimrod thread - is that a German book ? Anybody has more info on that ?

The German book "Moderne Scheibenwaffen" by Otto Maretsch was published in 1911. Long out of print, it is a hard-to-find collector's item now.
In 2014 Josef Albl, Oberammergau, published his giant German tome "Scheibenwaffen" . You may ask him for availability info@albl-oberammergau.com

[Wolfgang]

Vielen Dank Axel !!!
There is one first edition "Moderne Scheibenwaffen" on e-bay, but too much for me (rather spend that money on a rifle). I saw the second edition sold for 60 euro just 4 months ago, so I will keep looking ...
The book from Josef Albl looks very interesting - found the digital "Inhaltsverzeichnis" (over 500 pages) - I will try to get that