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I bought a beautiful double rifle made by GLRasch a few years ago. It too was based on the 450 BPE and had the sweeping tapper in the first 3/4” from the base and then ever so slightly to the neck. I sent the chamber casting to CH4 and they made me a die set. My bore groove size was .443” which I gave them and I found a paper patch bullet that would work. I also had to trim the rim thickness and size to match and take a little off the first 1/4” of the base to chamber. However when fired the mouth of the case expanded beyond .458”. You could fit a .458 bullet into it. I got terrible leading ahead of the chamber within a couple of shots and accuracy went down hill as fast. A couple of double rifle shooters I know gave me advise useing more paper and then less paper, different thickness of paper but nothing helped. Then I ran across a guy who did a lot of black powder reloading of all types of rifles and he told me the German guns usually had straight or tapered throats that reguired an over sized lead bullet . He suggested useing the fired case and find a bullet that would fit it as tight as could be found and be able to be crimped to hold it. I was skeptical of this as I grew up reloading with the rule of no more than .003” over sized bullet should be loaded. He invited me to a black powder cartridge slug shoot where there were several shooters there hand loading at the bench without neck sizing the cases. They simply pressed the lead bullet into the case with their thumb and loaded. When asked what the size difference was between bore and the bullet they were using they all said it didn’t matter you fit the bullet to the fired case and it swage’s in the throat into the bore. So I went back and rather than useing a .458” bullet I found some .452”. I had a .45/70 die set that I removed the sizing plug and that made a good fit. The rifle never had any leading problems after that and it was a good shooter except it kicked like hell. You will need to shorten the case to accommodate the bullet you pick. And try and trim and size down a .450 E case and fireform it to get the bullet size you will need . CH4D will want to know that. You will only need the sizing die as once they are shot you will only need to neck size and crimp. I used 45/70 crimping die to load mine and never had to full length size them which makes your cases last a lot longer. you will need a reloading press that is high enough to fit these long cases in. My older RCBS reloaded was too short.
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Last edited by Leatherman; 05-04-2021, 03:28 AM. -
Hello mike ford.Originally posted by mike ford View Post
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, now I understand .... however as will will see by my comments below in answer to Leatherman's post ... I've solved the problem - it was a very simple solution.
Hello Leatherman,Originally posted by Leatherman View Post
Thanks for the reply.
Although your suggested solution will work, there are a couple complicating issues. First, right now Dave at CH4D is running over 2 years for custom dies. .... and they are 't cheap. Second, you have to modify the rim dia and thickness on the 450 E brass .... and, without the custom dies, there's a lot of screwing around making 450 E cases fit into a 450 D chamber.
So .... for me the solution was a simple one .... I rented a 450 NE reamer for $35 ... it arrived today .... I reamed by hand and in less than 30 minutes, I had a 450 "E" chamber. All the reamer did was remove the sweeping taper in the middle of the chamber - which was only about .010". It also cuts the rim thickness and diameter to standard. Now all my 450 bpe cases fit just fine. I have a tons of that brass and bullets because I have 3 other 450 bpe rifles. As for a press ... I load 700NE in my RCBS Ammo-Master reloading press, so this cartridge fits easily..
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Last edited by buckstix; 05-04-2021, 11:43 AM."You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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buckstix,
If you look at my discussion of "D" vs. "E" vs. "N" chambers, the solution you chose was basically the reason for the "N" profile. The reason I didn't suggest it was that real 11.6x82R rifles are pretty rare while 450 BPE rifles are fairly common. Even though I have a 9.3x72R N reamer, I always recommend ways to reload for the "D" chamber before giving in to rechambering to the "N" profile. The world is not going to fall down if someone takes a different path than I would take, everyone has their own desires and limitations. If you look at my different comments both here and on Doublegun, you will se I believe if you own a gun, you are entitled to do with it as you will.
MikeComment
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Hello mike ford,Originally posted by mike ford View Post
Thanks for the reply.
I agree with you ... "somewhat" ... I have taken great measures in the past to keep rifles in their original chamberings, and have adapted innovative ways to reload for them. I have 350 sets of different reloading dies, and can mix and match to load just about any cartridge. ... However, there are a few exceptions. One was a single-shot Meffert Imman Stalking rifle in 6.5x48R Sauer caliber that had a similar curved chamber. After spending hundreds of dollars on forming and reloading dies, and then spending 20 hours modifying brass cases, I was only able to get 2 or 3 shots per case before they failed. Simple solution was to re-chamber the gun to 6.5x30-30. Now brass is plentiful and I shoot the gun often with no problems. Although no longer in original chambering, it is a very nice rifle in a shootable caliber, and it will bring much more money when I get around to selling it.
This 11.6x82R cartridge is another one of those exceptions. Too much money and too much time & trouble to adapt brass to shoot it. The History of this gun's sale confirms this. I knew the original owner. He put it with Rock Island Auction Co. in 2010. RIA listed a pre-auction estimate value of $3,000 to $5,000. It sold for only $600 because of the obscure caliber. With this chamber modification I will be able to enjoy shooting it, and I'm sure when I'm ready to pass it on, it will be much easier to sell. After-all, these guns are meant to be "used"."You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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buckstix,
Like I said it is your rifle and you can do what ever you want with it. I have a falling block German rifle that was re- lined to 218 Mashburn that caused untold problems and started as an 8.15x46R, which is very easy. I have a tip up that was re-chambered from 8.15x46R( .311" barrel) to 30-30 then neck reamed to 32 Win spec. with too short neck and came to me really screwed up by the too high pressures. Also another tip up that was re-bored and rechambered( orig. markings removed ?) , to 45 AR. Both barrel and chamber oversized and split 60% of new cases. I had to open rim recess and use shortened 7.62x54R cases and .454" bullets to shoot it. So, I have a little experience with rifles that had been owned by someone else that were entitled to do what they wanted with them too. I load for and shoot a BF in 16 ga. and 6.5x58R S&S, by making cases from 2.125" 38-55 cases and .260" bullets from .264". The 6.5x58R S&S is the big brother to the 6.5x48R S&S, and I don't have a problem with losing cases, but I always anneal after fireforming. This is one rifle I had to buy a sizing die for. I 'worried the cases close to size using other "on hand " dies, then full length sized them In the CH4D die, and thinned the rims. It would have been easier if my rifle had been 6.5x48R, I have 30-30 cases by the pound and full length 38-55 cases are about gone from my stocks. It's no problem doing this to get cases, the fun is in working it out. BTW are you using .260- .261" bullets in the 6.5X48R?Comment
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Hello mike ford,Originally posted by mike ford View Post
Thanks for the reply.
If Dave at CH4D had told me that custom form dies and reloading dies were available for the 11.6x82R in a "reasonable time" (not 2 years) I might have considered re-working 450 brass. But being 70 years old, I don't feel I have years to spend waiting to shoot something. As to 8.15x46R I can't see why someone would change that caliber. It is easy to find dies and brass. Too bad someone changed that rifle - unless they just wanted a 218 Mashburn and happened to have a spare rifle. I have 2 dozen Wehrmannsgewehr rifles by various makers, as well as several Schuetzen rifles also in that caliber. Its one of my favorite calibers. A while back I designed a special ring-stop bullet for 8.15x46R that is now offered by Buffalo Arms and listed under my name (item no. JIM325180) I use that bullet exclusively and have won several 200 yard schuetzen matches with it. I use .264 bullets in my 6.5x30-30. They shoot just fine.
BTW, back in April 2018 I bought a double-Martini Style Miller and Val. Greiss Double rifle in original 11.6x65R caliber that is unchanged. A little off track for this topic - it is shown in great detail on AR forum
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Last edited by buckstix; 05-05-2021, 03:36 AM."You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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buckstix,
I don't run this site (or any other) but interesting rifles are always on track. I can remember that rifle, it is certainly interesting. Did you "slug" the 6.5 x 48R S&S ? By the "bullet in a fired case" test, I could likely shoot .264" bullets , since my 6.5x58R S&S cases are short( and thin), but the grooves are so shallow you can hardly see the lands on a "slug". I use oversize bullets in some of my 8 mm rifles, without concern, but I don't want to risk this barrel.
MikeComment
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Hello mike ford,Originally posted by mike ford View Post
Thanks for the reply.
I have been shooting a lot of "oversize" bullets in various rifles for many years. I'm just careful to make sure the pressures are within range. There is much miss-information / concern about bullet size exactly matching the bore.
Here's another interesting Miller Val. Greiss Double rifle in my collection. Its in original 10x47R caliber.
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10greiss-1.jpgLast edited by buckstix; 05-05-2021, 04:49 PM."You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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buckstix,
That is also a nice rifle. I am interested in the bullet you use. I have a similar hammer BF by Val. Kern in 16/ 10x42R Miller and Val.Greiss. I'm still making up cases and haven't worked up a load yet. I have fireformed a few cases an a 38-40 ( also 10 mm Auto) bullet fits into the fired cases while a couple thousandths over groove diameter. I can use either one, but this rifle is a little unusual that it has the duty load stamped on the barrel. The duty bullet was listed as 250 grains( gram equivalent), while 38-40 bullets are 180 gr. and 10mm are 190 gr. This rifle has a "bugger" in the barrel that reminds me very much of a friends double 450-400 3" that had a roach die in one of the barrels, causing a similar "bugger". If it won't shoot cast bullets, I may have to try jacketed bullets. I have some 40-60 Win. .406" , 210 gr. bullets and a few 40-82 Win .408", 250gr bullets. Sizing the .408" enough, it will likely wipe out the lube grooves. What experience do you have with 10mm bullets for these rifles? BTW I make the cases from 45-70s by moving the rim forward to approximate the MB, then size and trim. I make 11.15x51R cases this way and they work like a charm.
MikeComment
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Hello mike ford,Originally posted by mike ford View Post
Thanks for the reply.
I purchased some 9x47R Bertram brass and opened it up to 10x47R. I have 3 Corbin swage presses and have been swaging my own bullets since 1978. For the 10x47R, I swaged .210" dia half-jacket bullets weighing 250g, 265g, and 310g. I also tried some 210g Hornady 41 mag bullets. All shot pretty good, but the best performance was from my 265g half-jacket bullets. I loaded 55g FFFg = 1215 fps, and 26g AA5744 = 1345 fps. The AA5744 load was overall the best - target is shown below...
10x47r-targ.jpg
"You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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buckstix
Thanks for the info, I would hunt with that rifle. How do you like the Bertram cases? I avoided it because of complaints on different forums, in addition to the cost( I really just enjoy being able to make what I don't have, myself). Since I'm having a really hard time standing, I may have to rethink that, the cost part at least. Do you have problems with quality or fit or unusual case loss across the board with Bertram brass? If I switched to Buffalo Arms, I would just be paying them to do what I do. My rifle should be easier than yours, because it only has one rifle barrel. If I can't get it to shoot cast bullets because of the "bugger", I think I will steal your idea and try swaging bullets. I do have a Corbin press, but only have .318" dies, so I think i would use an old Herter's press, because I believe it would be simpler to make dies for it, especially if I make it in SWC form. I would make them .400-.401" and could also use them in my 38-40 pistol. I could make the dies adjustable for weight, so I could get 180, 250, or 265 gr bullets. Since you like .210" bullets, I may dig into my stash of 41 cal cast bullets, but They won't fit into a fireformed case, so I will either have to size them or swage a heeled base like for my 11.15x60R. I'm happy to see you have good luck with 5744, I've recently been changing different loads from Unique and 4198 to it, so it will be the first or second powder I try.
Thanks again for the info.
MikeComment
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Hello mike ford,
Thanks for the reply.
Bertram brass is kind of "hit-and-miss" - sometimes good, and sometimes very good, and sometimes not so good. It seems to be better lately as opposed to the older stuff. I've been swaging half-jacket bullets for a long time. I use them in my Werndl rifles and other odd-size bores where mostly lead bullets are used. I get absolutely no leading what so ever. You can still cups from Corbin. I use 44 cups for Werndl and 45s. I flare the cup mouth with a taper punch and insert the lead core. Under pressure of the press, the cups will expand to full size all the way to the base - so long as the flare is slightly bigger than the die diameter for the bullet you are swaging. I have also made "pound swage" dies. Here's one for making 1000g 700NE bullets. I use copper "end caps" for 1/2" water pipe and I cast directly into the cup with a modified .700 aluminum mold. Then I put the bullet into the" pound swage" and hammer it twice with a 4 pound hammer to expand the base and form the round nose. it leaves a slight ridge like a wad-cutter. The bullets cut a near perfect round hole in the target. My pounded 700 NE bullets cost 0.15 each - Woodleigh 700 NE bullets cost $4.00 each. ( pictures added ).Last edited by buckstix; 05-06-2021, 11:25 PM."You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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buckstix,
That is great. I think I still have some jackets left over from my late mentor Gene Enterkin's bullet swaging operations for 358 Enterkin Mag. bullets, I don't know if they would be too small for 10mm bullets, but I think I would have to make dies to draw 44 cups If I tried to use them. I have a couple other projects ahead of the Val. Kern anyway.
MikeComment
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Hello mike ford,Originally posted by mike ford View Post
Thanks for the reply.
As long as you can "flare" the cup mouth a little wider than the die cavity with a taper punch - when the core seater pushes the core and cup into the die, it will expand the lead and push the cup into the cavity. As the cup and core slide into the cavity, the cup flare is reduced to fit and seals at the mouth of the die so the expanding lead stays inside and expand the cup to fit. I've used 38 cal. cups and expanded them out for making 11mm bullets.
SWAGE-FLARE-1.jpgLast edited by buckstix; 05-07-2021, 03:28 AM."You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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Hello all,
I tired another load today with the Poriska. I loaded some 45 cal Hornady 325g Flex Tip Bullets. I got great results.
Velocities are near original 1800s velocity. A fun thump-er at 29 ft/lbs recoil.
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"You never pay too much for something - you only buy it too early"Comment
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