Franz Poriska 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun - help w info about the maker & cartridge

[buckstix]

I recently acquired another Cape Gun. This one from Austria/Hungary from the 1880s. Although this was purchased from a private party, while researching the maker I found it was listed for sale at Rock Island Auction Co. back in September of 2010. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any information about this maker or the gun. The only info that I have is what was shown in that old auction listing. (see pic) Surprisingly, there are no caliber marks or proof marks and no serial number or assembly numbers on the gun. The only markings are on the barrels and on both locks. I was hoping to find information on the internet that told about the place and date of manufacture, but so far no luck. Info from other forums has identified the caliber as 11.6x82R BP, an old German version of the 450 bpe. If anyone has any additional info about the maker or the caliber, please chime in.

as always, your comments are welcome.

poriska-91.jpg

[algmule]

Hello

If the marking “Wien” is anything to go by the earliest manufacturing date for your B?chsflinte would be sometime around late 1882/early 1883. Franz Poriska started out his Vienna-business at Brunngasse 62, Vienna in late 1882/early 1883 but a year later he had moved his business to Kaiserstra?e 104 where he had his Werkst?tte (workshop). Franz Poriska MAY (note stress on may, please) originally have come from Waidhofen an der Ybbs, and if so, he was also a “Gerichtssekret?r” and later “Landesgerichtsrat, Wien”. BUT, the Waidhofen bit is speculation, at least for now. Franz Poriska, together with B?chsenmacher Deak, provided guns for Waidlingbacher Sch?tzenverein. Also, when I point out the earliest manufacturing date for your B?chsflinte, what I mean is that around that time some engraver put Wien on it as Poriska by then was in Vienna. As there are no proof marks on the thing it was, of course, manufactured and sold before the Austrians introduced their proof facilities (although there were various control marks and test marks before the introduction of the official Austro-Hungarian proof law[s]).

IF, Franz Poriska took over immediately after Leopold Wurzinger put a pistol to his head and shot himself on 9 December, 1878, he did not perform the takeover in Vienna, as Franz Poriska did not have an establishment in Vienna at that time (see above on the POSSIBILITY about Waidhofen an der Ybbs). Why Leopold Wurzinger shot himself is not known to me but it might have been grief, or guilt, as his daughter had performed the same act the year before on April 29. However, there was speculation it was not suicide on her part. Her name was Leopoldine Wurzinger and she was 26 in 1877.

Below is an ad from Leopold Wurzinger

duckpixie.jpg

Also: there was a Poriska, B?chsenmacher, in Beneschau bei Prag, and I have a mentioning of him in 1898 (summer). If his name was Franz I don’t know.

Now we're all awaiting images of your B?chsflinte.

Another also: I know I am annoying at times but compared to the forum I’m immensely likeable. I can’t log in/on from the forum’s main page and I keep getting logged out if I as much as turn my head. Also, do something about the Umlauts, please.

EDIT: Waidhofen an der Ybbs seems to be a false lead. Poriska opened his shop (when he started his Werkst?tte at Kaiserstra?e 104, Brunngasse was his first abode) in Vienna just four doors away from where Wurzinger had been active. Poriska may of course have been from WadY but, if so, I don't think he had any business there.

Peter

[mike ford]

Buckstix,
I am not at all sure that the cited caliber of 11.6x82R BP ( Old German version of 450 BPE) is correct. Neither this posting nor the one in the DoubleGun Forum show any dimensions to base this on. Peter's posting shows an advert from the possible manufacturer, which the actions are Lancaster ( Lankaster?) type. The LK Express cartridges ran from 11.15x40R to 11.15x65R, with case lengths of 40, 50, 52, 55, 60, and 65 mm, being introduced from 1880 to 1895. We can be much more positive with id of the cartridge if you will make( or have made) a chamber cast and "slug" the barrel. Also, clear photos of the gun and all markings, especially any under the barrels, would be very helpful. Old chambers are often confusing, because there is often no distinction between the end of the chamber, itself, and the beginning of the throat. This makes case length hard to determine. Sometimes this indicates a "heeled" bullet, but not always. If you can get this info to us, we can likely help you.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello algmule,
Hello mike ford,

Thanks for your reply.

I posted 9 pictures in my original post. Pictures of the gun and a chamber cast with dimebsions, and a 11.6x82R cartridge. I can see them all above.. can you not see them?

[algmule]

Hello

I can now see the images. I couldn't before but I believe some forum manager was doing something at the time. Thank you for posting images.
Now let's see if you can see what my name is. If not, there's either something up with the forum again, or possibly your eye sight.

EDIT: and correction. B?chsenmacher Deak in my first post should be Denk (don't know which Denk, though. There were at least three of them), sorry. Also: later on Poriska had his Werkst?tte at Kaiserstra?e 107.

Peter

[Axel E]

Peter, that Franz Poriska from Waidhofen must be a different person because of an entirely different profession. He was a Gerichtssekretaer = secretary to a law court and later promoted to Landgerichtsrat = judge at a court of appeal. Not the type of career of a gunsmith.

[mike ford]

Buckstix,
Now, I can see the photos, like Peter, I couldn't see them before. From the head diameter of the chamber cast, the cartridge cannot be one of the LK cartridges. However, if the dimensions of the chamber cast are correct, and if Dixon is correct, the cartridge cannot be the 11.6x82R either. The head diameter of the chamber cast is shown as .538", which converts to 13.66 mm while Dixon shows the head diameter is 14.00 mm. The chamber cast must be larger than the cartridge, otherwise it will not chamber. The neck diameter of the chamber (.490") works out to be 12.45mm, while Dixon shows the cartridge neck diameter as 12.24 mm, since this is smaller, it works. The rim diameter seems to be the same for both, but the chamber cast doesn't seem fully filled out, so I can concede that one. I seem to remember a statement on the Doublegun Forum that you tried a 450 3 1/4" BPE and it wouldn't chamber, only going in about an inch. If my memory is in error, I suggest you confirm the head diameter of the chamber cast. I am still unsure about the case length of what ever cartridge it takes, because the 3.250 measurement leaves very little room for a throat, before beginning the rifling. Let us know if the .538" is correct and we will look for other cartridges.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,
Thanks for the reply.
I re-measured the chamber cast and I corrected the drawing. The head measures .550" dia. It was difficult to measure because the extractor imprinted also. I'm convinced it is the 11.6x82R bpe cartridge. I have a cartridge collector friend that may have a cartridge to test the chamber.

[Axel E]

I am still unsure about the case length of what ever cartridge it takes, because the 3.250 measurement leaves very little room for a throat, before beginning the rifling.

Mike, throatless rifle chambers are not uncommon in early blackpowder express rifles. My own .500 3” BPE double rifle, sold originally in 1870, also has no throats t speak of. The rifling starts just at the end of the chamber. A throat was not necessary for the early British Express loads as their paperpatched bullets were seated deep into the case to protect the patch, just the smaller diameter ogive projecting beyond the case mouth.

[mike ford]

Buckstix,
That correction makes a lot more sense. I went back to your post in Doublegun, where you said the chamber was too small, and noted that you tried a case rather than a cartridge. New cartridge cases often do not fit into the rifle, even the correct one. If you don't have a way, locally, to FL size the case, I can help if you mail the case to me. One possible problem with my help is your chamber seems to have a "D" profile; whereas I believe my dies are for the "E" profile ( I don't have the rifle). You can reload cartridges fired in a "D" chamber, with "E" dies, however.
Axel
Yes that is correct, that is part of what makes determining case length difficult. I mentioned this difficulty before you came into the conversation. I can't say it never happens but German cartridges seldom had PP bullets, while British and American often did. However In my "accumulation" of old cartridges, German ones with what seem to be heeled lead bullets are fairly common. As I mentioned above, as shown by the chamber cast, this rifle seems to have a "D" profile chamber, which may indicate German/ Austrian cartridges.

[algmule]

Hello

Axel,
yes, I was wrong. I got hold of two Franz Poriska instead of one. When the WadY-Poriska first appears in Vienna (in 1897) B?chsenmacher-Poriska was no longer there. I’ve not been able to find any more on B?chsenmacher Franz Poriska. He started his business either late 1882 or early 1883 and the business ended late 1895 or sometime in 1896. Why his business did not get on its way right after Wurzinger passed I don’t know but it may have had something to do with finances needing to be cleared up (see below on Wurzinger).

As for Wurzinger he had a patent on a pistol.

Das k. k. Handelsministerium und das k?nigl. ungarische Handelsministerium haben nachstehende Privilegien verl?ngert:
Am 8. J?nner 1873.
2. Das dem Leopold Wurzinger auf die Erfindung eines eigenth?mlichen Verschlu?mechanismus f?r Hinterladungspistolen unterm 13. November 1871 ertheilte ausschlie?ende Privilegium, auf die Dauer des zweiten Jahres.

Ausschlie?ende Privilegien.
Nachstehenden Privilegien sind durch Zeitablauf erloschen und wurden als solche von k. k. Privilegien-Archive registrirt:
35. Das Privilegium des Leopolod Wurzinger vom 13. November 1871 auf Erfindung eines eigenth?mlichen Verschlu?mechanismus f?r Hinterladungs-Pistolen. [April 4, 1874]

It seems Wurzinger was in financial bother when he ended his life and maybe he was en route to do so anyway as three of his drinking buddies had committed suicide by means of poisoning themselves. All this on top of his daughter’s suicide probably became too much.

Also: the WadY-Vienna-Franz Poriska ended his days in Tulbing in 1918.

Peter

[buckstix]

poriska-94.jpg

Buckstix,
That correction makes a lot more sense. I went back to your post in Doublegun, where you said the chamber was too small, and noted that you tried a case rather than a cartridge. New cartridge cases often do not fit into the rifle, even the correct one. If you don't have a way, locally, to FL size the case, I can help if you mail the case to me. One possible problem with my help is your chamber seems to have a "D" profile; whereas I believe my dies are for the "E" profile ( I don't have the rifle). You can reload cartridges fired in a "D" chamber, with "E" dies, however.

Hello mike ford.
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not familiar with the terms "D" and "E" profile. Please explain.
As I've done with many of my collectables, I adapted a case for the gun.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
For several old express cartridges there were more than one case form for the same nominal cartridge, the most common seems to be the 9.3x72R , but also includes the 450 ( 11.6) series. The "E" profile is the English profile is a more or less straight taper from the neck to the base of the case. The "D" profile is the German (Deutsche) profile which is a "sweeping" taper from the neck to the base ( if you recall your chamber cast head diameter was .550" but just ahead of this you measured .505" and the neck was .490"). In an effort to standardize the profiles, another profile was devised so chambers could be easily reamed to fit the standardized ( normalizert- normalized) case which was designated Norm. or N profile. This whole exercise was to allow manufacturing one case profile for each nominal cartridge. It worked pretty well, with minor exceptions, such as the 9.3x72R S&S which was an entirely different case that was outside the parameters. Do I have you confused enough yet?
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,
Thanks for the reply.
I think I understand. "E" is English straight taper ... "D" is German sweeping taper. I have E brass that doesn't quite fit,so I would need D dies to make the sweeping taper so they would fit the chamber. However, if I had a rifle with E chamber, I could use a D dies to reload cartridges fired in that chamber ... correct?

[mike ford]

buckstix
Not exactly, you have it backwards. If the rifle has a "D" chamber, you can reload cases fired in it with "E"( most common) dies. The dies would neck size the cases only. If you used "D" dies( very uncommon) to size cases fired in an "E" chamber, you would size the body too much every time you size them after they expanded in the larger( in the body area) chamber. If you have a "D" chamber and "E" cases; if you can find a way to size them to fit into the chamber, you can then fireform them to fit the chamber. If the cases have been fireformed to fit the chamber, you can use "E" dies to load them. if you or a friend have a set. If you don't have access to "E" dies and have to buy a set, you may as well buy the correct ones , if you will never have a need for the "E" ones. There is another possible thing you may need to address, that we haven't discussed. German cartridges sometimes have to have the rims thinned to fit the rim recess, if modern cases are being used. This is also sometimes encountered with English rifles. This is only a simple lathe job, not a problem. Regarding "worrying" cases to fit into "D" chamber for fire forming, an example would be with 9.3x72 R "D". People with a "D" chambered rifle sometimes size available "N" cartridges or cases in 38-55 dies, until they will chamber, then reload with common "N" dies. Finding a way to do this depends on what ever dies you have in your accumulation; or if you can make a simple "ring" die yourself. On the other hand, if you don't have any thing that will work and have no lathe, you may as well have custom dies made for your chamber. CH4D can do this for you, but it will be expensive, may have a long lead time, and they may need your chamber cast or cases fired in the rifle. Good luck.
Mike